John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[CJ Wiley]

Pure Stoke

CJ -- I shot some half-ball-aim spot shots this afternoon from 2 diamonds up and 1 diamond over, i.e., on the head string 12.5" off the side rail. Hitting the CB medium speed just inside of center, I had good success pocketing the balls. So I imagine that's why you have success from that spot -- you use a bit of inside.

With a center-ball hit, I undercut it every time from that location.

I've always used this shot for calibration purposes, and without seeing yours I would have to guess, but I do have a question - How would you normally "aim" this exact shot?....it would surprise me to see you undercut this shot with center.....but as I've said before, it's a lot tougher than players realize to hit the exact center....many players, when they use the "touch of inside" are actually hitting the center much of the time....but at least they're not hitting the "wrong side of the ball"....and I feel that's a major accomplishment in understanding your own stroke and true result feedback. C J Wiley "Play Where the Pros Play" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma5PTds8YaI&feature=plcp

 

[duckie]

I was putting in my usual 3 hours of practice yesterday. For this session I was just rolling all the balls randomly and going from there and not practicing 14.1 as I have been doing.

What I noticed was for me to run all 15 balls required to use of various levels of spin based on the position I needed for the next shot. I always play position.

This is why I say that all shots are really carom shots. You are caroming the CB off another ball in order to get position on another ball and repeat. The only time the shot is not a carom is when it is the last ball and position doesn't matter.

Another thing I noticed was that in order to get position at times I would have to hit the pocket off center in order to get the angle off the OB I needed to get the position I wanted. Practicing 14.1 has made be very aware of the importance of using angles off the OB.

Every pool player worth their chalk knows about using the whole pocket in order to get the position they want. Its nothing new, no matter what it is called.

Thinking in terms of using spin for making shots instead in terms of using only when needed is a bad habit that will bite you in the long run.

I still would like to know what a medium hit is. What is a medium hit? How fast is the CB moving for a medium hit? Are you referring to what I call a medium as the same as what others may call a medium hit? Who's medium hit are we using as the standard for what is considered a medium hit?

This is why I do not give much value to tests that do not indicate a known value for the speed of the CB at time of impact. When I was doing testing, my results had to be in real data, and not in subjective terms such as medium.

Oh btw, a round object doesn't have sides but only a surface, a box has sides.

 

[CJ Wiley]

If you're spinning you may not be win////....playing your best

I was putting in my usual 3 hours of practice yesterday. For this session I was just rolling all the balls randomly and going from there and not practicing 14.1 as I have been doing.

What I noticed was for me to run all 15 balls required to use of various levels of spin based on the position I needed for the next shot. I always play position.

This is why I say that all shots are really carom shots. You are caroming the CB off another ball in order to get position on another ball and repeat. The only time the shot is not a carom is when it is the last ball and position doesn't matter.

Another thing I noticed was that in order to get position at times I would have to hit the pocket off center in order to get the angle off the OB I needed to get the position I wanted. Practicing 14.1 has made be very aware of the importance of using angles off the OB.

Every pool player worth their chalk knows about using the whole pocket in order to get the position they want. Its nothing new, no matter what it is called.

Thinking in terms of using spin for making shots instead in terms of using only when needed is a bad habit that will bite you in the long run.

I still would like to know what a medium hit is. What is a medium hit? How fast is the CB moving for a medium hit? Are you referring to what I call a medium as the same as what others may call a medium hit? Who's medium hit are we using as the standard for what is considered a medium hit?

This is why I do not give much value to tests that do not indicate a known value for the speed of the CB at time of impact. When I was doing testing, my results had to be in real data, and not in subjective terms such as medium.

Oh btw, a round object doesn't have sides but only a surface, a box has sides.

I could make several comments, but I'll limit it to two: and a half
1) Using spin to change the natural angle makes Pool a guessing game....you may guess right quite a bit and that will make for a pleasant day, but inconsistency will creep in when you least expect or want it. Also when you're spinning (even slightly) shots a lot it forces you to hit many different speeds....a moderate speed would be better....one that goes 1.5 table lengths on a 9' table with a reasonably new Simonis cloth.
2) You mentioned a round object doesn't have sides and you are correct...I have ALWAYS imagined the balls as FLAT, almost one dimensional to be able to "connect the dots" in my Connection (aiming) System. Anytime I see them as round it makes it not only more difficult to connect them, but also difficult {for me} to see how to break up clusters.

 

[AtLarge]

... I do have a question - How would you normally "aim" this exact shot?....it would surprise me to see you undercut this shot with center.....but as I've said before, it's a lot tougher than players realize to hit the exact center....

You're raising the possibility that when I shot the spot shots from the head string and 12.5" off the side rail using a bit of inside on the CB, that I was actually hitting the CB in the center -- and, therefore, that your statement that it's an exact half-ball aim/hit from that location is correct.

No, that's not it. I can hit the CB in the center (at least on occasion:smile. But let me repeat my question to you again. When you shoot that spot shot are you hitting the CB slightly to the inside of center, in the manner you have described in this thread? If so, that would account for why you make that shot from that position, because squirt from the inside hit would be moving the CB into the thinner hit needed.

But, without regard to my stroke or your technique, the numbers actually answer this question. From one diamond in (12.5") from the side rail on the head string, the cut angle needed for a spot shot (ignoring collision-induced throw) is 32.3 degrees. Because of throw, the aim would need to be even a bit thinner than that. The distance from the side rail needed for a geometric 30-degree cut is about 10.4", not 12.5". And allowing for CIT, the distance needs to be even a bit closer to the rail than that (8"-9" works well for me, as I said).

So, from 12.5", aiming for a 30 degree cut (half-ball aim) with a center CB hit would under cut the shot. Hitting center CB from that location, you have to aim a bit outside the edge of the OB, not directly at it.

 

[One Pocket John]

A lot of folks cant hit the cue ball in the center. They line up, put the cue tip at QB center and actually hit the QB off center,either right or left of center. I think this oddity may have to do with whether your left handed or right handed. Dont know just guessing.

When I think I'm hitting center, after the QB strikes the OB, the QB sides a little over to the right of where the OB was. So to correct for this I aim at the QB just a little to the left. What happens is I hit the QB center.

Cant explain whats happening here, but it works.

John

 

[CJ Wiley]

You're raising the possibility that when I shot the spot shots from the head string and 12.5" off the side rail using a bit of inside on the CB, that I was actually hitting the CB in the center -- and, therefore, that your statement that it's an exact half-ball aim/hit from that location is correct.

No, that's not it. I can hit the CB in the center (at least on occasion:smile. But let me repeat my question to you again. When you shoot that spot shot are you hitting the CB slightly to the inside of center, in the manner you have described in this thread? If so, that would account for why you make that shot from that position, because squirt from the inside hit would be moving the CB into the thinner hit needed.

But, without regard to my stroke or your technique, the numbers actually answer this question. From one diamond in (12.5") from the side rail on the head string, the cut angle needed for a spot shot (ignoring collision-induced throw) is 32.3 degrees. Because of throw, the aim would need to be even a bit thinner than that. The distance from the side rail needed for a geometric 30-degree cut is about 10.4", not 12.5". And allowing for CIT, the distance needs to be even a bit closer to the rail than that (8"-9" works well for me, as I said).

So, from 12.5", aiming for a 30 degree cut (half-ball aim) with a center CB hit would under cut the shot. Hitting center CB from that location, you have to aim a bit outside the edge of the OB, not directly at it.

I have understood why you're asking this question....but the point I want you to understand is "if you over think these things you will suffer from paralysis by analysis".....the truth is I can make this shot aiming in a variaty of different ways because I know the truth (and it will set you free to play your best) "the game you are striving to play is not achieved by seeing with your eyes some kind of "target/line/spot", it's about feeling the connection to the shot with your Entire Body"... I could help you a lot in a very reasonable amount of time by showing you LIVE exactly how to achieve this....In writing I can only communicate at about 7% by just using words, and the other 93% MUST come from tonality and body language....the advantage I have is I can demonstrate all of these techniques in a variaty of ways....no two people will learn in exactly the same way, so the *"Law of requisite variety"* comes into play...'The Game is the Teacher'

*
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/REQVAR.html

 

[CJ Wiley]

Center Ball is the toughest of them ALL

A lot of folks cant hit the cue ball in the center. They line up, put the cue tip at QB center and actually hit the QB off center,either right or left of center. I think this oddity may have to do with whether your left handed or right handed. Dont know just guessing.

When I think I'm hitting center, after the QB strikes the OB, the QB sides a little over to the right of where the OB was. So to correct for this I aim at the QB just a little to the left. What happens is I hit the QB center.

Cant explain whats happening here, but it works.

John

You have found one of the most important things out....none of us can hit the center of the ball consistently....so why try? That's great, John, I bet you are tough to beat because you play the same most every day.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...none of us can hit the center of the ball consistently....so why try?

None of us can hit any CB spot consistently. We try because missing any spot is just as bad as missing any other spot. If we miss to the right of centerball or to the right of leftcenter or to the right of rightcenter, it's just as big a miss either way.

pj
chgo

 

[AtLarge]

I have understood why you're asking this question....but the point I want you to understand is "if you over think these things you will suffer from paralysis by analysis".....the truth is I can make this shot aiming in a variaty of different ways because I know the truth (and it will set you free to play your best) "the game you are striving to play is not achieved by seeing with your eyes some kind of "target/line/spot", it's about feeling the connection to the shot with your Entire Body"... I could help you a lot in a very reasonable amount of time by showing you LIVE exactly how to achieve this....In writing I can only communicate at about 7% by just using words, and the other 93% MUST come from tonality and body language....the advantage I have is I can demonstrate all of these techniques in a variaty of ways....no two people will learn in exactly the same way, so the *"Law of requisite variety"* comes into play...'The Game is the Teacher'

*
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/REQVAR.html

Yes, I'm sure you can make that spot shot in a variety of ways and that you could help me with my game.

But the reason I have pursued this point is simply to correct information you have given, both here and in your "Secrets" DVD, that I believe could easily mislead students of the game.

You have said that a spot shot from 2 diamonds up and 1 diamond over is exactly a half-ball hit. So it is possible that many people have heard you say that (or read it here) and then have taken it to the table, using a center-ball hit on the CB, and under cut shot after shot -- wondering what they are doing wrong.

It's not a matter of metaphysics, or feeling the connection, or paralysis by analysis. I'm simply addressing the rather pedestrian question of where is the best place to put the CB on the head string for a spot shot using a half-ball aim at the OB and a center hit on the CB (with no consideration other than making the OB). I think a great many people would find that a point a few inches closer to the side rail works better than the point a full diamond (12.5") from the side rail.

 

[Living Legend]

first shot

second half ball hit shot

This is what im getting from CJ post and he does this as a stroke exercise for constancy and to learn your stroke, he hits full ball then half ball. What is he misleading here or am i missing something here?

 

[AtLarge]

This is what im getting from CJ post and he does this as a stroke exercise for constancy and to learn your stroke, he hits full ball then half ball. What is he misleading here?

I don't want to go through what I have said about the spot shot yet again. I've posted several times about exactly what I mean. I see that the image you posted shows 31 degrees for the spot shot. That software is quite sensitive to ball placement, and it looks to me like you are a bit off in placing the 9-ball. I get 32 degrees when I use that software. I get 32.3 degrees when I calculate it with trig. Plus -- you must allow for CIT.

 

[The Renfro]

I don't want to go through what I have said about the spot shot yet again. I've posted several times about exactly what I mean. I see that the image you posted shows 31 degrees for the spot shot. That software is quite sensitive to ball placement, and it looks to me like you are a bit off in placing the 9-ball. I get 32 degrees when I use that software. I get 32.4 degrees when I calculate it with trig. Plus -- you must allow for CIT.

How slow are you shooting the spot shot? I can see where I undercut this if I lag it to the hole but with speed and a rolling ball I really don't get much in the way of CIT... I practice lagging the cueball to the end rail on the spot shot often trying to keep whitey short of touching... That's about the only time I have to account for CIT but maybe I hit the ball at a faster pace than you tend to.....

 

[The Renfro]

None of us can hit any CB spot consistently. We try because missing any spot is just as bad as missing any other spot. If we miss to the right of centerball or to the right of leftcenter or to the right of rightcenter, it's just as big a miss either way.

pj
chgo

With proper pivot length not so much..... And right of left center might be center or even right center so there again not so much... Right of right center is still right of center LOL... Minimize mistakes and find ways to repeat what you do....

 

[CJ Wiley]

'The Game is the Teacher'

Yes, I'm sure you can make that spot shot in a variety of ways and that you could help me with my game.

But the reason I have pursued this point is simply to correct information you have given, both here and in your "Secrets" DVD, that I believe could easily mislead students of the game.

You have said that a spot shot from 2 diamonds up and 1 diamond over is exactly a half-ball hit. So it is possible that many people have heard you say that (or read it here) and then have taken it to the table, using a center-ball hit on the CB, and under cut shot after shot -- wondering what they are doing wrong.

It's not a matter of metaphysics, or feeling the connection, or paralysis by analysis. I'm simply addressing the rather pedestrian question of where is the best place to put the CB on the head string for a spot shot using a half-ball aim at the OB and a center hit on the CB (with no consideration other than making the OB). I think a great many people would find that a point a few inches closer to the side rail works better than the point a full diamond (12.5") from the side rail.

You may "be at choice" and move the ball over if you choose

 

[CJ Wiley]

Why Play if it's no fun? Playing well = More Enjoyment

first shot

second half ball hit shot

This is what im getting from CJ post and he does this as a stroke exercise for constancy and to learn your stroke, he hits full ball then half ball. What is he misleading here or am i missing something here?

I've seen many people do this calibration excersise and they usually over cut it, and rarely undercut it. The issue is the mind....if you think something strong enough it becomes true. I grew up playing roll out rules where you actually had to shoot spot shots, and I've had to make hundreds of high dollar spot shots from this position. And yes, as I've said many times I naturally throw my shots in and I've recommended numerous times in this thread that if you want to be a better player you need to do the same. If you want to be something else then I have no idea why you would waste your time on azbilliards forum talking about "cut ratios" and "squirt/swerve/formulas" ... This is just a sentence to mediocrity with no probation and no enjoyment for the game. Why even play if it's not fun?

 

[West Point 1987]

CJ-- I just wanted to take a moment to thank you. I think I totally understand what it is you're doing. At first, I think I was applying too much inside; but as you said, it's just a hair. This might take a little bit to master, but I really see the benefit of having the swing thought of a hair firmer stroke delivering a more solid line to the pocket.

I'm not sure if you mentioned this earlier--- where did you learn this from or did you figure that out on your own?

I'm starting to really like the concept. I think the secret is that initial alignment--- if you're perfect with the amount of thickness to the OB, you have a huge range of shot speeds that make the shot. And as you said, you're only cuing on one side of the CB.

Anyways, thank you for grinding out this discussion. There's prob a handful of people who "got it" and owe you for the info.

Dave

I want to echo this sentiment and add my thanks, too....this is a brilliant observation and after a short while, you'll not only see WHY this works, but you'll start to see other applications to other types of shots, too. Also, since I'm only using about a half tip of inside spin isn't a factor. I can control most of the shape I need with follow or draw; if I need outside, then I gotta use outside; but you'd really be surprised at how little that really applies...REALLY surprised.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... missing any spot is just as bad as missing any other spot. If we miss to the right of centerball or to the right of leftcenter or to the right of rightcenter, it's just as big a miss either way.

pj
chgo

The Renfro:
With proper pivot length not so much..... And right of left center might be center or even right center so there again not so much... Right of right center is still right of center LOL...

Using side doesn't reduce the effect of a miss-hit. I'll bet if Duckie suggested it you'd say it's ridiculous.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

Connection - Confidence - Creativity

I want to echo this sentiment and add my thanks, too....this is a brilliant observation and after a short while, you'll not only see WHY this works, but you'll start to see other applications to other types of shots, too. Also, since I'm only using about a half tip of inside spin isn't a factor. I can control most of the shape I need with follow or draw; if I need outside, then I gotta use outside; but you'd really be surprised at how little that really applies...REALLY surprised.

I'm glad you're starting to see where this is leading you....it opens up a whole new deminsion in your game where all you have to do is point (with a touch of inside) and make sure to accelerate.....to eliminate deceleration is something that will increase your confidence ..... I like to narrow it down to the "3C's" CONNECTION - CONFIDENCE - CREATIVITY....when you start developing your Game around these three components it gets fun...but not so much for the opponent you "used" to struggle with...he'll have the "3D's" Dreading - Dogging - and Dodging (you)

 

[duckie]

Do the test case shots and see how well this style of shotmaking works,but none will have the nerve to do so. Make sure the placement on the table is exactly in the pic.

Oh anyone answer what a medium hit is?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mr. Wiley's 3 C's...My take on them.

I'm glad you're starting to see where this is leading you....it opens up a whole new deminsion in your game where all you have to do is point (with a touch of inside) and make sure to accelerate.....to eliminate deceleration is something that will increase your confidence ..... I like to narrow it down to the "3C's" CONNECTION - CONFIDENCE - CREATIVITY....when you start developing your Game around these three components it gets fun...but not so much for the opponent you "used" to struggle with...he'll have the "3D's" Dreading - Dogging - and Dodging (you)

Mr. Wiley,

I mentioned in another post, how 'boring' the game would be 'for me' if I had to hit every shot on the center line. I would probably quit playing. I know you are not 'talking' about side spin here. But...once one has learned how to shoot with combination english (off center top & bottom with side, right & left) the 3 C's you refer to all come into 'play' & 'play' becomes FUN.

I relate it to painting, which I did when I was young, commercial painting that is. Once one has painted a masterpiece with an artist's brush, english, why would one ever go back to painting houses with a 4" wide brush, a roller or a spray unit.

When one gets center hit (which takes perfection) out of the 'picture' & starts hitting the CB off center, ON PURPOSE, you bring CREATIVITY into the picture. To be successful in one's CREATIVITY one has to have the CONNECTION between the CB & OB & once one has the CONNECTION & is successful with one's CREATIVITY, CONFIDENCE 'comes' into the picture.

The picture starts to take shape. You & your style can then be exhibited in the game that YOU play. You are not an Iron Byron, the golf machine that has a 'perfect' swing. It would actually be harder to design, build, & then POSITION a machine to execute the shots that we have to execute when playing pool than it is for golf. Like you I have played tennis & golf as well. I was offered a position to teach tennis at a very large tennis club when I 20 yrs. old. I turned it down as I was still into 'playing' & having FUN & not ready to be locked into work at that time. In hind sight I wish I would have accepted. But I digress.

When you play succesfully with CREATIVITY, CONNECTION & CONFIDENCE & successfully create the picture that you have in your mind, you can express yourself on the table & then you are 'painting' masterpieces.

Painting masterpieces is FUN! Painting houses is work. I'd rather have FUN than work any day. I think that is what God intended for us, but something or someone messed that up. FUN is still there inside of us though, we just have to LET it happen.

If my take on your 3 C's is out of line, I apologize & I would certainly invite your explantion as to how they fit into the final picture of playing Pocket Billiards.

Sincerely, with nothing but Good Intentions,
Rick