aiming and deflection... for a newbie

With a perfectly level cue, it is possible to roll the CB with sidespin immediately off the tip. However, with an elevated cue, there is some sliding (due to the masse spin) before complete roll occurs. With more cue elevation and more shot speed, this effect is exaggerated. However, even with only slight cue elevation and slow speeds, the same effects are still there, they are just much smaller and happen too quickly to notice. Regardless, the only time squirt/swerve is a "non factor" is when the swerve (for a given cue elevation, shot speed, and cloth/ball conditions) exactly cancels the squirt (for a given cue). The shot speed must also be slow enough so there is no appreciable shift in the line of the CB while CB roll develops (while the swerve occurs).

Not to be argumentative, but the part about "However, with an elevated cue, there is some sliding (due to the masse spin) before complete roll occurs, " just doesn't make sense to me.

If the tip contacts the ball above the axis that is parallel to the bed of the table, the ball has to start off rolling.

If the tip contacts the ball right on the axis that is parallel to the bed of the table, the ball has to start off sliding.

And if the tip contacts the ball below the axis that is parallel to the bed of the table, the ball has to start off back spinning.

I don't see any way that a ball that is hit above the level centerline can possibly slide, even with an elevated cue. What I can see, however, is that by elevating the back end of the cue enough, you can drop the tip down and hit right on, or below, a new axis that is angled to the bed of the table and is created by the particular elevation of the cue. This would then cause a slide or backspin (trouble).

Also, if you are indeed hitting your shots above the level centerline, you can keep the cue almost "dead" level.

And when I tested my theory of above-center hits, I used three different shafts. One was graphite, one was a 13mm standard maple, and one was a Predator 314. Interestingly enough (to me, anyway), there was no noticeable difference in any of them. Squirt and swerve were essentially non-factors. When I dropped down to the level centerline, however, it was a different matter.

Roger
 
If the tip contacts the ball above the axis that is parallel to the bed of the table, the ball has to start off rolling.
To start off with immediate "full roll" the cue ball must be hit with a level stick at about 40% of the distance from center to the top of the ball (about 80% of maximum follow) - even higher if the butt is elevated at all, which it pretty much always is because it's pretty much always over a rail.

When hit above center but with less than 80% of maximum follow the cue ball starts out with some forward rotation, but not enough to roll fully - so it's sliding, but not as much as if hit on the equator.

pj
chgo
 
I do not mean to impose on the converstion but I just wanted to throw in, if the english is being applied with a slight back hand pivot that would...what word, offset, diminish the 'overall net result'.
You are correct. Both back-hand English (BHE) and stroke swoop can be used to correct for squirt. That is what those techniques are for.

Front-hand English (FHE) is more appropriate for slower roll shots, where swerve cancels some of the squirt.

Regards,
Dave
 
I never did the "scientific/video" experinents, but I have tried using a perfectly level cue and found out that was NO GOOD to play with....I play best with my cue at a certain angle going towards the bottom of the cue ball (I'm not certain what angle that is, I've never measured it :wink:)...the suggestions "play with a center ball and/or level cue" is a recipe for a LOT of missed shots.

Mr. Wiley,

Another 'tease' that hits close to home. First the 'controverial' english & now this. Because I shoot almost every shot with some form of 'diagonal' english, for the most part I want to & do keep my cue as level as possibly. Otherwise I would be hitting a masse type shot all of the time or the CB would be bouncing on the table.

Almost all of us know that the cue is probably never truely level due to the rails. I do not understand why one would want an elevated cue. Shooting from up against the rail is harder for many because they elevate their cue TOO much and cause a loss of control.

If I'm off base, please correct me. In other words, can you please elborate.

No offense meant, but you seem to be starting to resemble some of the other instructors here on AZB that dangle what they think is bait in hope of realling in a fish.

Sincerely & with Regards,
Rick
 
Not to be argumentative, but the part about "However, with an elevated cue, there is some sliding (due to the masse spin) before complete roll occurs, " just doesn't make sense to me.
The CB can have sidespin (left or right), top/bottom spin, and/or masse spin (AKA "corkscrew spin," "barrel roll" or plane/boat "roll"). With cue elevation and an off-center hit (left or right), the CB develops both sidespin and masse spin. Masse spin is what causes swerve (curving of the CB's path). During swerve, there is sliding motion between the CB and cloth. This sliding creates a friction force which is responsible for the curving of the CB. Once the sliding (and swerve) stops, the CB begins to roll and it heads in a straight line (with or without sidespin). This effect is exaggerated with a fast-speed masse shot, where the masse spin persists over a large distance and long time (especially on slick cloth). However, the masse spin and swerve effects occur with any shot where the cue is not perfectly level (i.e., with practically every pool shot). At lower cue elevations and slower speeds, the effect is small and happens very quickly, but the effect is still there.

Have you ever seen the Coriolis aiming method for masse shots? If not, check it out. It can actually be used to predict the amount of swerve for any shot, even typical pool shots with only a small amount of cue elevation.

If the tip contacts the ball above the axis that is parallel to the bed of the table, the ball has to start off rolling.
... only if the tip is at the correct height. For more info, illustrations, and demonstration, see:

If the tip contacts the ball right on the axis that is parallel to the bed of the table, the ball has to start off sliding.
Yes. In fact, if the tip contact the CB at any height other than the roll height, the CB will slide at first; although, roll will eventually develop ... sometimes quickly. For more info and illustrations, see:

And if the tip contacts the ball below the axis that is parallel to the bed of the table, the ball has to start off back spinning.
Correct, for the same reason.

AI don't see any way that a ball that is hit above the level centerline can possibly slide, even with an elevated cue.
Sliding can be due to stun or bottom-spin drag, but it can also be due to masse spin. Again, masse spin occurs anytime the cue is not perfectly level. At a pool table, the cue is practically never perfectly level because it must be elevated to clear the rails, even with follow shots.

if you are indeed hitting your shots above the level centerline, you can keep the cue almost "dead" level.
It can certainly be more level than with a draw shot, but it still can't be "dead level." In fact, one reason accuracy can be better with an above-center hit, is that there is less swerve. For more info, see:

And when I tested my theory of above-center hits, I used three different shafts. One was graphite, one was a 13mm standard maple, and one was a Predator 314. Interestingly enough (to me, anyway), there was no noticeable difference in any of them. Squirt and swerve were essentially non-factors. When I dropped down to the level centerline, however, it was a different matter.
If you use the exact same cue elevation, shot speed, and tip contact point for all shots, the difference might be small (for slow-speed hits, with the cue as level as possible), but there should be a difference ... there certainly is when I do careful tests. As you know, a small difference can make a big difference at a pool table (especially with long shots and tight pockets).

When you drop down to centerline, the cue elevation and swerve increase. The squirt will be different for each cue, but for identical hits, the swerve should be the same for each. Again, the net result should be different for each cue.

Regards,
Dave
 
To start off with immediate "full roll" the cue ball must be hit with a level stick at about 40% of the distance from center to the top of the ball (about 80% of maximum follow) - even higher if the butt is elevated at all, which it pretty much always is because it's pretty much always over a rail.

When hit above center but with less than 80% of maximum follow the cue ball starts out with some forward rotation, but not enough to roll fully - so it's sliding, but not as much as if hit on the equator.

pj
chgo

Thank you for that, PJ, but it would be easier to comprehend the differences if we had some slow-motion video that demonstrated such. Maybe Dr. Dave has some on his site. I'll have to go check it out.

Roger
 
Thank you for that, PJ, but it would be easier to comprehend the differences if we had some slow-motion video that demonstrated such. Maybe Dr. Dave has some on his site. I'll have to go check it out.
Roger,

Check out the following instructional article:
How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?” (BD, September, 2011).​

It has some good illustrations and links to videos on this topic.

Regards,
Dave
 
Roger,

Check out the following instructional article:
How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?” (BD, September, 2011).​

It has some good illustrations and links to videos on this topic.
FYI, here's a pertinent illustration from the article:

tip_height_references.jpg

Regards,
Dave
 
Wow, I didn't mean for such a big debate to come out of this just wanted a little advice and help :eek:
 
Wow, I didn't mean for such a big debate to come out of this just wanted a little advice and help :eek:

Sorry, but you can never post on AZB with "aiming and deflection" in the title and not get a big debate out of it. No. Uh,Uh. Not possible.:nono:
 
Back
Top