John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[BeiberLvr]

I'd know I'm wrong if I heard a reasonable explanation of how aiming to one side of the pocket and adding side to squirt-cut the OB to center pocket produces a different stick/CB/OB/pocket alignment than aiming at center pocket with the same amount of side and adjusting aim normally for squirt.

pj
chgo

Or you could try it out for a few hours like everyone else has.

You remind of someone who won't eat broccoli because they don't like asparagus. "Well asparagus is a vegetable, and I didn't care for it, therefore I know I won't like broccoli." :wink:

In all seriousness though, is there a reason you haven't tried it out yet? If you have, and I missed it, I do apologize.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So what's preventing you from understanding this concept?

I understand it, CJ. I don't think you understood my post. Sorry - written communication about this stuff is hard.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

none of them had to beat Dave Yeager

I tried it on a bar table this weekend and killed whitey more than I needed to do. It was a good feeling to be able hold the rock in traffic. Makes stop outs in tight spaces easier with small cue ball moves.

I used to try and figure out why Dave Yeager could run out rack after rack on the big table and never do more than float the cue ball into position zones. I got tired of racking 6 packs and trying to figure out what he did. After using this technique, my memories came back about how his run outs looked. I'm finally getting the same pos he did.

He also did something else to hide this technique, I realized. That's why I never picked up on it. Neither could anybody else. We were scratching our heads and guessing. Now, I know. :winknudge:

Best,
Mike

You're right, Dave used this technique as well. He ran an unbelievable amount of racks on a bar table. I watched him play back when they used to have the bar table tournaments in Clinton Iowa with ALL the champions....talk about the who's who in players.

I was there when I was 17 and held my own, but I still can't believe the talent that was in that one room.....and the characters, Louie, Keith, Matlock, Buddy, Allen, Dallas, Rempe, Omaha John, Jimmy Reid, Sigel, Miz, Liscotti, Mataya, and of course none of them had to beat Dave Yeager.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'd know I'm wrong if I heard a reasonable explanation of how aiming to one side of the pocket and adding side to squirt-cut the OB to center pocket produces a different stick/CB/OB/pocket alignment than aiming at center pocket with the same amount of side and adjusting aim normally for squirt.

pj
chgo

Consistency. Using the same stroke every time and not having to adjust for squirt.

Best,
Mike

I guess you didn't understand me either. Oh well, I didn't have very high hopes of everybody getting it.

Carry on...

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You remind of someone who won't eat broccoli because they don't like asparagus. "Well asparagus is a vegetable, and I didn't care for it, therefore I know I won't like broccoli." :wink:

This isn't like asparagus - it is asparagus.

...is there a reason you haven't tried it out yet?

I "try it out" every time I use a small amount of sidespin and a firm stroke.

Anyway, I've had my say again and am willing to let this horse have another peaceful death.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

Exactly the same thing that happens with CJ's technique. That's because they're exactly the same technique except for how they're described.

With CJ's technique you also aim at the center of the pocket - you tell yourself you're "aiming" at another part of the pocket, but there's really no difference. If I "aim at the center of the pocket" (as usual), but then adjust my aim toward another part of the pocket to compensate for squirt, then I'm "aiming at another part of the pocket", just like with CJ's technique.

pj
chgo

P.S. I like the emphasis that CJ's technique puts on exact tip/CB placement and exact part-of-the-pocket aiming. But you can do that without adding unnecessary squirt to the equation.

Patrick,
Maybe that's what you think, but you may be wrong about this. I don't think CJ aims at the center of the pocket, at least not with this technique he's speaking about.
If I'm wrong CJ can correct me.

I haven't been using his technique and aiming at the center of the pocket and I haven't been "telling myself" I'm aiming at another portion of the pocket. I'm actually aiming the object ball at one "side" of the pocket and then applying a touch of inside.

And as Mike reported, I like the cue ball taking a different path (for shape) and action when using this technique.

 

[duckie]

There is one good reason not to try something. It can do more harm than good. Trying something just to try it really doesn't make sense.

In every person game, the needs to be a point where you are no longer looking for your way. There has to be a point where you say this is it and it doesn't matter one bit what way is chosen.

Once you pick that way, all your focus needs to be on your way.

Now, if you have not reached that point in your way, by all means try anything until you find what way you want and just stick to it.

Once you find your way,there is no need to try anything else.

 

[BeiberLvr]

There is one good reason not to try something. It can do more harm than good. Trying something just to try it really doesn't make sense.

In every person game, the needs to be a point where you are no longer looking for your way. There has to be a point where you say this is it and it doesn't matter one bit what way is chosen.

Once you pick that way, all your focus needs to be on your way.

Now, if you have not reached that point in your way, by all means try anything until you find what way you want and just stick to it.

Once you find your way,there is no need to try anything else.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with CJ's technique, this is a horrible way to view not only pool, but life as well.

 

[Neil]

There is one good reason not to try something. It can do more harm than good. Trying something just to try it really doesn't make sense.

In every person game, the needs to be a point where you are no longer looking for your way. There has to be a point where you say this is it and it doesn't matter one bit what way is chosen.

Once you pick that way, all your focus needs to be on your way.

Now, if you have not reached that point in your way, by all means try anything until you find what way you want and just stick to it.

Once you find your way,there is no need to try anything else.

Duckie, you are totally missing the point of your very own signature line. Yes, you are very correct in stating that you have to find YOUR way. However, that does not mean or even imply not keeping an open mind and learning from others. It means to take what works for you from others, and discard what doesn't work. Always striving to improve upon yourself. Not taking what current knowledge you do have and saying "no more" this has to be enough, somehow this will make me play to my best. You are being very close minded in your thinking, and have no choice but to stagnate at some level. If Bruce Lee heard you say what you did, he would slap you up the side of the head about 10 times before you realized you had been hit.

It really baffles me how you can make a statement that is 100% opposed to your very signature line.??????

 

[Neil]

Patrick,
Maybe that's what you think, but you may be wrong about this. I don't think CJ aims at the center of the pocket, at least not with this technique he's speaking about.
If I'm wrong CJ can correct me.

I haven't been using his technique and aiming at the center of the pocket and I haven't been "telling myself" I'm aiming at another portion of the pocket. I'm actually aiming the object ball at one "side" of the pocket and then applying a touch of inside.

And as Mike reported, I like the cue ball taking a different path (for shape) and action when using this technique.

Joey, and Mike, the statement I highlighted in red has me somewhat confused.... I find it hard to believe, but what is the case here? You guys seldom used inside before, or what? I just don't understand someone fairly well accomplished at the game making that statement.???

Going by what CJ states, you are not putting spin on the cb. (least wise not enough to throw the ob or change the path off the ob from center ball hits on the cb.) That being the case, you are now playing shape with just follow or draw from the natural angle off the ob. Don't you guys ever look at what the natural angle is anyways?? For position, it's always the first thing I look at. Where does the cb want to go, and where do I want it to go, and what do I have to do to get it where I want it to go?

Many times, a touch or inside or no english is all you need. I would say about 60% of the time. The other 40%, a touch of outside for about 20% and the other 20% you need more than a touch one way or the other.

Now, maybe CJ's way is opening up new parameters to some on here. That is great. As to shooting all shots that way, I disagree. Now, I KNOW that some on here will say, "well, you can't play as good as CJ, so we will listen to him". To you, I say, well, that is very true, I can't play as good as CJ. And, I assure you, it is not because I use the whole cb. :wink: To you, I will refer you to none other than Buddy Hall. A big advocate of using the entire cb for position, the clock method. Who, in his prime, was better than CJ was in his prime, AND he had the arguably the best cb control of anyone ever.

So, if it works for you, fantastic! But for anyone to say that it is the best way to play, or is what is holding you back from being great, I totally disagree with.

Something else to pay attention to, that hasn't been mentioned much, if at all... if you are using inside, and your cb has running english off the rail on right cuts, or reverse english on left cuts, you are spinning the cb, and also then have to allow for throw of the ob. In other words, if you use inside on a cut to the left, aim at the far right of the pocket, and have spin on the cb because you hit too far out on the cb, you will now throw the ob into the point of the pocket. Just something there to be aware of. So, if you now can't reliably hit very close to center cb on demand, you better work on that first.

 

[Mikjary]

I guess you didn't understand me either. Oh well, I didn't have very high hopes of everybody getting it.

Carry on...

pj
chgo

Why would I not understand your basic thoughts about all this? I did this exact method for years. When I used to play straights years ago I ran at least a dozen centuries + with that line of thinking.

My simple point is the same as what Joey A put to pen...I'm not aiming for the center of the pocket. I expect consciously to hit the inside of the facing and assume there is no squirt. I'm going into auto pilot and letting my robotic stroke pocket the ball with no help from me with aiming or compensating.

I'm trying to establish a grooved movement with no squirt adjustment consciously. If I am adjusting, good. I have no idea I'm doing it and I can go on to more important things to do with my thinking mind like position play and the hot waitress that I've been over tipping all night.

It may be an exercise in reason to some, but to me it's a way of looking at a shot that I've shot a thousand times before and I'm shooting it differently with better results.

Best,
Mike

 

[JB Cases]

So there is a point in your life where you think the mind should be closed and learning should stop?

www.jbcases.com

 

[The Renfro]

So there is a point in your life where you think the mind should be closed and learning should stop?

www.jbcases.com

For me I hope not John... But for others I sense that the point of no return has been crossed as is evidenced by their posts...

The moment that I think I know everything and that I think I no longer need to try something new will be the point at which I will realize I likely know almost nothing in the grand scheme of things....

 

[Mitchxout]

The more you learn, the less you know. :grin-square:

 

[Neil]

The more you learn, the less you know. :grin-square:

Let me fix that for you: The more you learn, the more you realize how little you did know.:wink:

 

[Mikjary]

Joey, and Mike, the statement I highlighted in red has me somewhat confused.... I find it hard to believe, but what is the case here? You guys seldom used inside before, or what? I just don't understand someone fairly well accomplished at the game making that statement.???

Going by what CJ states, you are not putting spin on the cb. (least wise not enough to throw the ob or change the path off the ob from center ball hits on the cb.) That being the case, you are now playing shape with just follow or draw from the natural angle off the ob. Don't you guys ever look at what the natural angle is anyways?? For position, it's always the first thing I look at. Where does the cb want to go, and where do I want it to go, and what do I have to do to get it where I want it to go?

Many times, a touch or inside or no english is all you need. I would say about 60% of the time. The other 40%, a touch of outside for about 20% and the other 20% you need more than a touch one way or the other.

Now, maybe CJ's way is opening up new parameters to some on here. That is great. As to shooting all shots that way, I disagree. Now, I KNOW that some on here will say, "well, you can't play as good as CJ, so we will listen to him". To you, I say, well, that is very true, I can't play as good as CJ. And, I assure you, it is not because I use the whole cb. :wink: To you, I will refer you to none other than Buddy Hall. A big advocate of using the entire cb for position, the clock method. Who, in his prime, was better than CJ was in his prime, AND he had the arguably the best cb control of anyone ever.

So, if it works for you, fantastic! But for anyone to say that it is the best way to play, or is what is holding you back from being great, I totally disagree with.

Something else to pay attention to, that hasn't been mentioned much, if at all... if you are using inside, and your cb has running english off the rail on right cuts, or reverse english on left cuts, you are spinning the cb, and also then have to allow for throw of the ob. In other words, if you use inside on a cut to the left, aim at the far right of the pocket, and have spin on the cb because you hit too far out on the cb, you will now throw the ob into the point of the pocket. Just something there to be aware of. So, if you now can't reliably hit very close to center cb on demand, you better work on that first.

Neil,

The idea of inside spin is older than all of us here. I'm sure we can agree on that. The inside stroke I'm using is so small, when I shoot the cue ball cross table, it comes back to the left or right off the rail 3 or 4 inches. Very little spin is applied.

With this thought in mind, I'm cueing through the cue ball as if I'm using center ball. I don't adjust for squirt. I don't worry about it. It's there unless I make a bad hit on the cue ball and do actually hit center ball or too far from center. Either way, I'm hitting the pocket.

The action on the cue ball is a combination/cancelling of the inside cueing and throw off of the object ball. It doesn't pick up running english and the angle coming off the first rail is different. Not like when you hit inside english and hit the rail. It is a natural roll and then picks up spin off the first rail. Subtle, but very different.

This is much easier to control and I can see where the consistent portion of the technique adds to tighter position play. Try it for a while. Not fifteen or twenty minutes, but a few days. It creeps into your psyche and you start to look at the game quite differently. As if we don't already know all there is to know about the game! :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Joey:
I don't think CJ aims at the center of the pocket

If "aim" means where the OB would go if squirt didn't exist, then neither of us "aims at the center of the pocket". If "aim" means where we hope the OB will go because of squirt, then both of us do.

However you describe it we both end up with precisely the same stick/CB/OB/pocket alignment. If we don't and we both have the same stroke and I'm the one aiming at center pocket, then he misses more often.

pj <- running out of different ways to say it
chgo

 

[Neil]

Neil,

The idea of inside spin is older than all of us here. I'm sure we can agree on that. The inside stroke I'm using is so small, when I shoot the cue ball cross table, it comes back to the left or right off the rail 3 or 4 inches. Very little spin is applied.

With this thought in mind, I'm cueing through the cue ball as if I'm using center ball. I don't adjust for squirt. I don't worry about it. It's there unless I make a bad hit on the cue ball and do actually hit center ball or too far from center. Either way, I'm hitting the pocket.

The action on the cue ball is a combination/cancelling of the inside cueing and throw off of the object ball. It doesn't pick up running english and the angle coming off the first rail is different. Not like when you hit inside english and hit the rail. It is a natural roll and then picks up spin off the first rail. Subtle, but very different.

This is much easier to control and I can see where the consistent portion of the technique adds to tighter position play. Try it for a while. Not fifteen or twenty minutes, but a few days. It creeps into your psyche and you start to look at the game quite differently. As if we don't already know all there is to know about the game! :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

I understand exactly what is happening. In fact, here is what is actually happening- you do have some spin on the cb. If you hit off center, you have to spin the cb. That being said, you have very little spin or english on the cb.

When you hit an ob at an angle, you automatically put spin on the cb. You cannot avoid this happening. In fact, it will put outside spin on the cb.

Now, knowing that, if you hit at the correct speed, the little bit of inside english you have on the cb will cancel upon contact with the ob trying to put outside spin on the cb. The net result will be no spin on the cb when it hits the rail. Yes, if you aren't used to hitting near center on the cb, this will appear to you to come off the rail at a much different angle than you think it should. In reality, it is coming off the rail at the correct angle.

If you hit the ob with no spin, then at contact you will naturally pick up a little outside spin on the cb and it will appear to some to be the "natural angle" off the rail. In fact, it is not, it is a touch of outside spin.

This is one of the reasons I have always stressed on here to really pay attention to exactly where you hit the cb, and what the results are.

 

[CJ Wiley]

This is another important part to a great game

Patrick,
Maybe that's what you think, but you may be wrong about this. I don't think CJ aims at the center of the pocket, at least not with this technique he's speaking about.
If I'm wrong CJ can correct me.

I haven't been using his technique and aiming at the center of the pocket and I haven't been "telling myself" I'm aiming at another portion of the pocket. I'm actually aiming the object ball at one "side" of the pocket and then applying a touch of inside.

And as Mike reported, I like the cue ball taking a different path (for shape) and action when using this technique.

You are correct sir, I only aim at the center of the pocket on straight in shots. I don't know about anyone else, but my game's getting super strong again because I'm MAKING myself do the routines I'm suggesting to you guys. I certainly want to practice these things as well and get the benefit, and discovered something doing the drill where you stand higher than normal.

I found that I was getting too low on the shots and I have always played better, up where I can see the object ball more clearly. Of course as the balls get further apart I naturally get lower, to keep the same visual perception between the two balls.

This is another important part to a great game, not only making sure you're the same distance from the cue ball every time, but keeping the same reference between the cue ball and the object ball. This is done by standing higher as the balls get closer and lower as the balls get further apart so it "appears" they are the same distance apart.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Mike:
The inside stroke I'm using is so small, when I shoot the cue ball cross table, it comes back to the left or right off the rail 3 or 4 inches. Very little spin is applied.

With this thought in mind, I'm cueing through the cue ball as if I'm using center ball. I don't adjust for squirt. I don't worry about it. It's there unless I make a bad hit on the cue ball and do actually hit center ball or too far from center. Either way, I'm hitting the pocket.

How has this technique fixed your stroke so it's never off by more than a hair in the direction of center ball (but potentially more in the other direction)?

pj
chgo