Maybe true with some angles but not all. No way, no how.
English with Aiming Systems
- Thread starter Gerry Williams
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Maybe true with some angles but not all. No way, no how.
You diagram the shots which you think need different aims and I will shoot them in on video using all speeds.
To date I probably have a 1000 hours worth of practice in using CTE. I shoot balls at all speeds.
I will set up the video so that any change in body position due to speed will be obvious.
I'm actually curious about this too. You can't possibly be shooting say a 30 - 40 degree cut at slow, medium, and fast speeds with the same alignment, unless you are compensating for the cling/throw somehow. Is that what you do?
Scott
Scott
I don't think he is conscious of making the adjustment for speed. The aims cannot be the same.
A spot shot is just one example.
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Since there is no set standard for what a slow, medium, or fast speed is, you can't say that the alignments will not be the same nor that some one must be making adjustments without knowing.
What one person consider as slow maybe not be the same for some one else.
This the biggest hole in discussing shot making. The use of terms that are totally subjective.
Is slow 3 mph, which is the low end of the scale used in a graph on Dr. Dave site about CIT? If so, then how often do you hit the CB such that it travels at a speed of 52.8 inches a second/4.4 ft a second or 3 mph?
Is fast 8 mph or 140.8 inch a second/11.7 ft a second?
This is why with the speeds I shoot with, I never worry about deflection, squirt, swerve, or CIT.
Speed control is the one thing that can not be read about on how to do it. I see most people hitting harder than necessary on most shots. They have not learn how to make the CB work for them but try to force things to happen with it by hitting hard.
Next time you shoot. try to be aware of how far the CB travels in a second. This is a way for you to quantify the real speed of the CB and not use terms that have a wide range of meanings to people.
See, to me doing 110 mph out in West Texas on I 10 is not fast, highway patrol would not see it that way however.
Since you insist on making the same statement or variation of the same statement in almost every thread, I'll help you out a little bit.
Here's a little test/drill you can do next time you're at the table. Put the CB at the foot or head spot to start out, and follow the crude diagram below.
Ok, I will make a video of aiming at a spot shot and shoot it with three speeds.
I don't know if a video can prove anything but I'm willing to watch it.
Duckie, I try to be pretty civil in all of my discussions, and have managed to get along fine with PJ and others even though we have disagreed on some topics. But your post is just utterly ridiculous. Pretty much anyone who has played for any length of time can estimate speeds based on the lengths of tables traveled, much like what was diagrammed, and share a common language that's close enough.
It's not perfect, and yes especially with amateurs when you tell them to hit "soft" it might be "medium" to them, but my statement was not concerning a specific speed, or how many inches per second were being traveled. I was just simply stating that shooting the same 30 degree shot at 3 different distinct speeds will require some sort of compensation since the cling effect will be present at the slower speeds at this angle.
John, with all due respect are you saying that you aim a 30 degree cut the exact same way at soft, medium, and firm speeds? And don't make any compensations? Maybe my balls are dirtier than yours - :grin-devilish: - but there's no way I can hit a 20 - 50 degree cut the same way with lag speed that I do with a very firm speed, I mean these shots are missed all the time by players that fail to compensate, I see it in leagues and when teaching people constantly, they aren't even aware of it. At soft lag-type speeds you typically have to either aim a little thinner to account for the cling or CIT, use a little inside english to deflect away from the hit and thus hit thinner, or use a little outside to offset the gear effect.
Scott
It's not perfect, and yes especially with amateurs when you tell them to hit "soft" it might be "medium" to them, but my statement was not concerning a specific speed, or how many inches per second were being traveled. I was just simply stating that shooting the same 30 degree shot at 3 different distinct speeds will require some sort of compensation since the cling effect will be present at the slower speeds at this angle.
John, with all due respect are you saying that you aim a 30 degree cut the exact same way at soft, medium, and firm speeds? And don't make any compensations? Maybe my balls are dirtier than yours - :grin-devilish: - but there's no way I can hit a 20 - 50 degree cut the same way with lag speed that I do with a very firm speed, I mean these shots are missed all the time by players that fail to compensate, I see it in leagues and when teaching people constantly, they aren't even aware of it. At soft lag-type speeds you typically have to either aim a little thinner to account for the cling or CIT, use a little inside english to deflect away from the hit and thus hit thinner, or use a little outside to offset the gear effect.
Scott
You see me lining up on the same shot the same way and shooting with three speeds and this isn't proof?
Lots of you guys make assertions about what is and is not possible and it's only folks like me willing to make to make videos to back up what we say.
Let me put it another way then.
The aim is the same regardless of speed. The adjustments for throw are teeny tiny adjustments in how the ball is struck.
With CTE getting down on the shot is exactly the same whether you intend to hit it softly or at warp speed. Thus the approach, the sighting and the physical act of getting down on the shot are no different. There is no conscious deliberate act of adjusting the aim to be a little thicker or thinner based on the speed of the shot. There COULD be a deliberate decision but in my game there is not. I get down on the shot the same way every time.
I copied this from Dr Dave's site:
For small cut angle shots (i.e., fuller hits), the amount of CIT does not vary with shot speed,
but increases with cut angle.
For larger cut angle shots (i.e., thinner hits), the amount of CIT is significantly larger for
slower speed shots as compared to faster speed shots.
The amount of CIT decreases some with larger cut angles, but not by much (especially for
slower speed shots).
Maximum CIT occurs at close to a half-ball hit (30º cut angle).
In general, throw is larger at slower speeds, and for stun shots
For small cut angle shots (i.e., fuller hits), the amount of CIT does not vary with shot speed,
but increases with cut angle.
For larger cut angle shots (i.e., thinner hits), the amount of CIT is significantly larger for
slower speed shots as compared to faster speed shots.
The amount of CIT decreases some with larger cut angles, but not by much (especially for
slower speed shots).
Maximum CIT occurs at close to a half-ball hit (30º cut angle).
In general, throw is larger at slower speeds, and for stun shots
I bet he has a video on this.
Setting up equipment to execute a perfectly repeatable shot, and then making video of the differences in throw with varying cut angles and shot speeds would be experimentally valid.
But, with all due respect, video of you shooting shots at different speeds would be unable to demonstrate that you are performing the exact same aim for each shot. Or, said in the reverse, there is just no way that an observer would be able to look at a video recording and the see the tiny, tiny differences that could (or would) exist in your final aim for any two shots.
I know.
But that won't stop me from doing a video just for my own sake. You see instead of relying on Dr. Dave to tell me how to play pool I like to experience things for myself.
So I just did a 22 minute video where I set up the spot shot and shot it 16 times at varying speeds and did my best to consciously aim the same way every time. I also narrated my thoughts as I was doing it complete with my own theories on why people miss when shooting at different speeds. Maybe I am wrong but I don't think that I am far off the truth of it.
May I ask if in Dr. Dave's videos if a robot shot the balls or was it a human? If a human then I expect that the human shooter comes with the same issues you outlined?
Anyway given my slow connection the video will probably take several hours to upload. I will update the thread when it's done. At the end I tossed in about five minutes or so on english with CTE.
Since you insist on making the same statement or variation of the same statement in almost every thread, I'll help you out a little bit.
Here's a little test/drill you can do next time you're at the table. Put the CB at the foot or head spot to start out, and follow the crude diagram below.
To me soft is barely reaching the end rail. Medium is coming back down to the shooter, hard is going four rails or more.
Absolutely.
I am interested in your video, notwithstanding, because I haven't watched any CTE demonstrations on video at all. Thanks for going to the trouble. I'll keep an eye out for it.
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Yep that's what I do. I don't worry about CIT except on certain shots where I want to throw the ball. Otherwise I ignore it and play the shot as aimed.
I contend that it's not the failure to compensate, it's more likely that they didn't hit the cue ball in the right spot to deliver it to the GB position. Hard to know which was which just by observing the shot without some high speed video to analyze.
I'd be willing to set up a laser line to prove that I can aim the same way and still make the ball at any speed for most shots.
You have not watched any because you haven't tried to find them or because you don't consider that the ones out there demonstrating CTE are not demonstrating CTE?
Because there certainly are videos demonstrating CTE.
In the video that is uploading now I am NOT demonstrating CTE other than to state that I am using it to aim with. But I do have other videos where I attempt to demonstrate with instructions. Those video are generally more confusing than clear but they represent the best I can do with my limited time and limited understanding of the method. Simply put I have not yet learned how to teach it effectively.
But if you want to learn to jump balls I am one of the best in the world at teaching that.