What's Good About A Good Stroke?

Interesting. Very smooth stroke, and plenty of power. But, is this not using the wrist?

So you could determine conclusively from those pictures or video that he was actually using his wrist to provide power or is it not possible that he simply had a completely relaxed wrist, with no tension, and it naturally hinged backwards and forwards during the stroke? Believe what you wish to believe but it usually helps if that belief has some foundation of fact.
 
So you've never tried cocking your wrist in pool? It's a good thing to "discover". :wink: You can see the wrist cock in this match.

CJ,

Since you so freely give of your knowledge & since the discussion has now moved from the elbow to the wrist.

Could you elaborate a bit on the ability of the wrsit, both as a power source 'short wrist punch' & also as in a loose connective hinge as in a 'flail'.

A 'flail' is an agricultural tool consisting of two(2) large sticks(levers) attached by a chain as is employed in numb chucks.

Thanks in advance,
 
The shot is at 2:54 of the video.

I just watched it & I agree that it seems that he did not use much if any 'wrist power'. The movement of his wrist accompanied by the opening of his fingers simply allows for a longer full stroke from 'total' back stroke to a more full foward stroke without the elbow dropping or the hand raising up to accomplish it. The wrist may only be absorbing the motion of the cue on the foward stroke as he cuts off a finish as opposed to adding any power.

It is similiar to the 'flail' to which I have been referring. It multiplies even if fractionally (1.20 x)the effort. Therefore you get more from less than you would with a firm tight wrist. To get the same effect you would have to employ more power from the power source which brings a larger margin of error into play.

That is just my 'humble' opinion. I'm not looking for a venacular war or the most perfect way to say it.

It's interesting as it applies to other topics we have 'discussed'.

Also it is a grip that I employ, but many times from the set up as oppose to allowing the fingers to open in the back stroke.

Just my nickel's worth,
 
Okay, here's my last word on this topic (not that I know much anyway)

Wrist no wrist, elbow drop or not if you remove all the tension from all the muscles in the chain from the shoulder to the fingers and employ a grip that allows the cue to flow unimpeded in a straight line you will become a better player. The relaxed muscles will allow you to generate much cue speed (= power) the relaxed grip will keep the cue going through straight.

The reason I have this belief is that after 40 years of playing and watching thousands of players I have seen many many ways of executing a shot, but the greatest players I have ever seen had these two elements.

Cheers
 
Okay, here's my last word on this topic (not that I know much anyway)

Wrist no wrist, elbow drop or not if you remove all the tension from all the muscles in the chain from the shoulder to the fingers and employ a grip that allows the cue to flow unimpeded in a straight line you will become a better player. The relaxed muscles will allow you to generate much cue speed (= power) the relaxed grip will keep the cue going through straight.

The reason I have this belief is that after 40 years of playing and watching thousands of players I have seen many many ways of executing a shot, but the greatest players I have ever seen had these two elements.

Cheers

Slasher.

I'm with you, along with my 46 years of playing & I'm an observant guy as well, as I was an investigative auditor for 15 years. If 2 + 2 do not = 4, then why not?

Best regards,
 
The only thing that interests me in this thread is, how to get rid of unwanted sideways movement of the wrist. My most comfortable grip is unreliable and holds me back from running out often.
 
The only thing that interests me in this thread is, how to get rid of unwanted sideways movement of the wrist. My most comfortable grip is unreliable and holds me back from running out often.

Some players turn the wrist all the way in, possibly it gives them a better reference point. I call it a monkey grip :grin:

You could also try focusing on relaxing your wrist, maybe there is some tension.
 
you will feel this leverage and the *kinetic energy it produces

CJ,

Since you so freely give of your knowledge & since the discussion has now moved from the elbow to the wrist.

Could you elaborate a bit on the ability of the wrsit, both as a power source 'short wrist punch' & also as in a loose connective hinge as in a 'flail'.

A 'flail' is an agricultural tool consisting of two(2) large sticks(levers) attached by a chain as is employed in numb chucks.

Thanks in advance,

The way to get the feeling of creating/producing more energy in your stroke is to pick up a hammer and drive some nails. Notice the way your wrist is used to create maximum force to the head of the hammer.

Your arm will move at a consistent speed and your wrist will "kick in" at the last instant with what we call in pool a "flick of the wrist" to drive the nail accurately and powerfully.

The tip is like the head of the hammer and the cue is the "delivery system" for the tip. If you drive some nails, then hit some pool balls you will feel this leverage and the *kinetic energy it produces.


*The kinetic energy of an object is the energy which it possesses due to its motion.[1] It is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes. The same amount of work is done by the body in decelerating from its current speed to a state of rest.

In classical mechanics, the kinetic energy of a non-rotating object of mass m traveling at a speed v is ½ mv². In relativistic mechanics, this is only a good approximation when v is much less than the speed of light.
 
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OK, I drew a few straight lines to show what I mean.

The image to the left is his wrist position at address, the one to the right is at the end of the backstroke. Compare the angles taken from the outside of the 2nd metacarpal bone in the hand to the back of the ulna. You can't cheat this angle by opening up the fingers because the bone is positioned inside the hand itself. Yes, he is wearing a shirt, but I did my best to draw the lines where the bones appear to lie under his shirt. If anything, I tried to err on the side that demonstrates less movement rather that more.

I also went back and looked at the video frame-by-frame. There are about 20 clicks of the keyboard arrow keys to one second of video clip. That means that each frame represents 1/20th of a second (I thought I'd find 30 FPS as most videos are shot at, but...) I also made a scale on a Post-It using a snooker ball as a gauge for estimating inches and affixed this to my computer screen along the line of his cue.

His forward stroke begins almost imperceptibly slowly at about 3:01:17. Six frames later at 3:02:03 his cue has moved about 1". In the next two frames his hand has only moved another 1.5", but it is obviously increasing in speed.

The next frame shows his hand in a motion blur, but his knucle appears to have suddenly moved forward about 6". By the end of the following frame he has moved his hand another 5" and his tip has already contacted the white (this is where one of those 300 FPS cameras would be nice to have). At this point, the angle between his 2nd metacarpal and his ulna has closed sharply compared to the angle at the end of the backstroke, showing significant wrist motion took place just prior to contact.

In the following frame his hand only moves about 2" due to the deceleration of the cue caused by the collision with the white ball. Then the stroke ends with the tip of the cue... a mere 5" from the back of where the white sat before the stroke. This demonstrates that there is no need for an extended follow through to finish up a superior stroke.

I also noted that his elbow rises about 1" at the same time the cue lowers about and inch, indicating that his wrist has "broken over" to a straight position, extending the distance from the elbow to the cue.

BTW at no point have I stated that this is a "power snap", or that there is any tension in his stroke. But his wrist does move through a fairly substantial arc, and it all happens during the portion of the stroke that appears to have the quickest acceleration - just prior to contact with the ball.

I see absolutely no reason to have to incorporate wrist motion into your stroke, but many pros do it and it seems to work for them. If it creates tension, then that tension must be resolved or the motion must be eliminated because tensing the wrist or hand before contact with the ball will certainly throw the cue off course. Done correctly and with the proper timing, a lot of speed can be added to the stroke with just a few degrees of wrist adduction.

Anyway, this took up way too much of my time, so I am out of here (again). I am not showing this to stubbornly try to prove a point, but only to show how I try to analyze videos of athletic motions. Take it however you want, I don't really care, but this is how I see it. I started doing this years ago in order to analyze students flycasting strokes since I din't have a high-speed video camera. It has its flaws, but it can pick up little glitches that go unnoticed to the unaided eye.
 

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The way to get the feeling of creating/producing more energy in your stroke is to pick up a hammer and drive some nails. Notice the way your wrist is used to create maximum force to the head of the hammer.
This is another bad analogy, like tennis and golf. All of these use a "long lever" to lengthen the swinging arc of the hand - that's where the bulk of the power comes from.

If you drive some nails, then hit some pool balls you will feel this leverage
The leverage demonstrated by these examples doesn't exist with a pool cue.

Wrist movement certainly adds some speed and power to the cue, but not the way these examples do, and not nearly as much.

pj
chgo
 
like a "lever"....this will keep the cue from moving sideways

The only thing that interests me in this thread is, how to get rid of unwanted sideways movement of the wrist. My most comfortable grip is unreliable and holds me back from running out often.

Get a hammer and drive some nails. I would try to hold the cue like you hold the hammer and notice how your wrists cock up and down. Try to incorportate this into your pool stroke.

Make the tip go slightly up and down with your wrist so it's like a "lever"....this will keep the cue from moving sideways in the way you suggested in your post. Exaggerate this at first so you can really understand how this worlds and your stroke's straightness will improve rapidly.
 
an expert in knowing what doesn't work. hmmm, very interesting....very interesting

This is another bad analogy, like tennis and golf. All of these use a "long lever" to lengthen the swinging arc of the hand - that's where the bulk of the power comes from.


The leverage demonstrated by these examples doesn't exist with a pool cue.

Wrist movement certainly adds some speed and power to the cue, but not the way these examples do, and not nearly as much.

pj
chgo

So you can't play golf, you don't play tennis and you're a "B" player at pool....and you're an expert in knowing what doesn't work. hmmm, very interesting....very interesting indeed :groucho:
 
So you can't play golf, you don't play tennis and you're a "B" player at pool....and you're an expert in knowing what doesn't work. hmmm, very interesting....very interesting indeed :groucho:

The multiplying factor in the golf swing is (depending on the club) somewhere in the neighborhood of 36"/3" (36" club length/ 3" wrist pivot) = 12.

The multiplying factor in the tennis swing is somewhere in the neighborhood of 21"/3" = 7.

The multiplying factor in the pool 'swing' is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3"/3" = 1.

That's a part of what he's saying.
 
Of course, if you use your cue stick like a golf club, as I am sometimes tempted to do, then the multiplying factor would be on the order of 54"/3" = 18... the most of all of them :grin-square:
 
So you can't play golf, you don't play tennis and you're a "B" player at pool....and you're an expert in knowing what doesn't work. hmmm, very interesting....very interesting indeed :groucho:
I haven't made petty comments about you, CJ. I've pointed out that some of the things you've said can be reasonably questioned, and I've given my reasons. I don't think being a former champion exempts you from showing the same consideration.

pj
chgo
 
Get a hammer and drive some nails. I would try to hold the cue like you hold the hammer and notice how your wrists cock up and down. Try to incorportate this into your pool stroke.

Make the tip go slightly up and down with your wrist so it's like a "lever"....this will keep the cue from moving sideways in the way you suggested in your post. Exaggerate this at first so you can really understand how this worlds and your stroke's straightness will improve rapidly.

CJ, get a hammer and try driving nails with wrist movement only. Let me know how that works for you.

You use the golf analogy often. The popular thought on the golf swing is to take the hands out of the swing as much as possible. Yes, the wrists cock in the golf swing. During the down swing, the hands are supposed to simply release naturally. That comes as a result of a light grip. People who try to force this release induce all kinds of faults into their swing. Perhaps you heard the terms "casting" as used in golf?

You and other high level professionals may purposefully use your wrist in your pool stroke. Saying that more than implies you are using muscle control of the wrist to do something other than simply release as a totally relaxed wrist would do. While the elbow is a hinged joint, the wrist is an articulated joint. I struggle to understand the concept of wanting this articulated joint to do anything in the pool stroke aside from be completely relaxed and be allowed to move naturally along the same plane as the elbow is moving. Back to designing a robot/machine again to emulate the perfect pool stroke. Were I or any competent design engineer to take on this task, I would put a hinged joint in the wrist that was aligned with the hinge in the elbow. Were the tolerances of the robot arm tight enough, it wouldn't matter if I put a ball joint in for the wrist, it wouldn't wobble anyway, it would simply release back in the back stroke and then release forward as the elbow brings the cue forward and completes the stroke. What you're suggesting is that the designer would include servo motors in the wrist mechanism to add controlled movement at that joint. I can tell you from a design perspective, with the goal of a perfect pool stroke and designing the simplest machine possible, that would make no sense whatsoever. While you and others may have found a way to successfully incorporate it into you stroke, I cannot fathom that is a solid instructional technique for most players. I just watched the video of the gentleman with a 104 ball string in straight pool accomplished in 25 minutes. He had no perceivable wrist movement at all. I guess he must have missed your lesson. :grin-square:
 
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So you can't play golf, you don't play tennis and you're a "B" player at pool....and you're an expert in knowing what doesn't work. hmmm, very interesting....very interesting indeed :groucho:

C'mon, CJ, really? One must be a golfer and a tennis player just because you choose to use those analogies?

I find myself on board with you on a lot of things that Pat disagrees with you on, but I happen to agree with him on this one. The mechanics of the two actions aren't even close.

FWIW "B" player or not, Pat is a pretty smart dude who has contributed a lot of interesting stuff on this board and others. Problem is he gets like a pit bull when he's sure he's right about something, and he's not at all shy about calling you out on it when he believes you make a mistake... over and over and over. He'll ignore your valid observations and pick apart your posts to find the weakest points and throw them back at you, but I guess that's OK. I appreciate that he is here, even if I refuse to rumble with him.
 
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