What's Good About A Good Stroke?

[sfleinen]

CJ,

What's up? I'm not a regular? I made that backwards hammering up analogy way back in post 408 when Mr. Dukie, Greg, was sort of slamming it.:wink:

Regards,

CJ:

Obviously, someone that knows what they're talking about with muscles stands a much better chance of getting his point across. For instance, in another thread/subforum, "duckie"/Greg once wrote this:

[...]
I know how joints work. I know how muscles work. One expanding while the other contracts.[...]

(You can click on the blue/gray "swirlie" arrow next to his name in that quote, and it will take you right to the post this excerpt was taken from.)

Those that've taken basic anatomy science classes know that muscle fibers work by contraction -- they NEVER "expand." So here's a case where ENGLISH is dead-on.

Another thing -- it's very easy to confuse "wrist motion" with actual finger motion. Driving a hammer forward in a "wristy" motion actually does use the wrist. However, you must maintain control of the hammer at all times, with a firm-ish grip. You don't, for example, open and close your hand to drive the hammer forward.

Compare this motion, to, say, the action a drummer makes when striking the drumhead. How about a demonstration? Let's take a look at probably the most technically-gifted drummer of today, Mike Mangini (formerly of the Steve Vai band, now playing for Dream Theater):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=31c-FL0ZlZ0

Although most of the "stroke" in hitting the drumheads -- with a power stoke -- resembles a hammer strike, take careful note of what happens at 2:15 (two minutes, fifteen seconds) in the video, when Mike goes into rapid-fire one-handed single-stroke rolls on the toms (Mike is in the Guinness Book of World Records, by the way, as having the fastest single-stroke roll in the world):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=31c-FL0ZlZ0#t=2m15s

That is NOT wrist! That is mostly finger action -- of the hand rapidly opening and closing, the drumstick "pivoting" inside the pinch between the index finger's second joint and the thumb, the sticking being driven downwards with rapid flexion of the middle/ring/pinkie fingers, with very little wrist movement. He's letting the drumstick rebound off the tom drumhead's surface, and then snapping his cradle fingers (middle/ring/pinkie) closed to return the stick to the drumhead.

Later on, obviously, Mike moves to full hammer strikes on the toms, when he goes into the powerful grand finale, but he does so because the movements are much more coarse.

I would offer that the "wrist flick" you see in Shane's and other pros' strokes, is more due to this opening/closing of the fingers -- like a very gentle single-shot version of a drummer doing a rapid one-handed single-stroke roll -- than of actual flexion of the wrist downward (in a powerful hammer or drumhead strike) as you suggest. Two TOTALLY different movements.

EDIT: even that "single-shot version of a drummer doing a rapid one-handed single-stroke roll" is not a full corollary to the pool stroke, as the drummer is applying a downwards "swing" of the implement via closing those cradle fingers. I don't think any pool or snooker pro does that -- the chance of applying yaw to the cue is too great, and would offer questionable benefit anyway.

Thoughts?
-Sean

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I do not think that the difference in success is primarily the point where the CB is contacted.

Contact point, stick angle and speed.

Is there something else that you think contributes to success, or do you just not believe that on general principle?

pj
chgo

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Although most of the "stroke" in hitting the drumheads -- with a power stoke -- resembles a hammer strike, take careful note of what happens at 2:15 (two minutes, fifteen seconds) in the video, when Mike goes into rapid-fire one-handed single-stroke rolls on the toms (Mike is in the Guinness Book of World Records, by the way, as having the fastest single-stroke roll in the world):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=31c-FL0ZlZ0#t=2m15s

That is NOT wrist! That is mostly finger action -- of the hand rapidly opening and closing, the drumstick "pivoting" inside the pinch between the index finger's second joint and the thumb, the sticking being driven downwards with rapid flexion of the middle/ring/pinkie fingers, with very little wrist movement. He's letting the drumstick rebound off the tom drumhead's surface, and then snapping his cradle fingers (middle/ring/pinkie) closed to return the stick to the drumhead.

Later on, obviously, Mike moves to full hammer strikes on the toms, when he goes into the powerful grand finale, but he does so because the movements are much more coarse.

I would offer that the "wrist flick" you see in Shane's and other pros' strokes, is more due to this opening/closing of the fingers -- like a very gentle single-shot version of a drummer doing a rapid one-handed single-stroke roll -- than of actual flexion of the wrist downward (in a powerful hammer or drumhead strike) as you suggest. Two TOTALLY different movements.

Why don't you ask a drummer about that instead of a championship pool player? You seem to know as little about playing the drums as you do about playing the violin. I play both. Trust me, the wrists are always used in playing the drums, even in a "buzz" roll. Just because you can't see the movement in a video don't mean the player isn't experiencing it. No wrist, no power at all. Period. The fingers are merely levers used to control the movement of the sticks.

BTW a violin bow is not held by the tips of the fingers. That would lead to a terrible tone and incredible finger cramps. The fingers cradle the bow... just like they do in a good pool grip. Youngsters are often give a visual like "imagine holding a [flower, butterfly, baby bird, etc.] in your hand without crushing it".

Like in the pic below:

 

[sfleinen]

Why don't you ask a drummer about that instead of a championship pool player? You seem to know as little about playing the drums as you do about playing the violin. I play both. Trust me, the wrists are always used in playing the drums, even in a "buzz" roll. Just because you can't see the movement in a video don't mean the player isn't experiencing it. No wrist, no power at all. Period. The fingers are merely levers used to control the movement of the sticks.

BTW a violin bow is not held by the tips of the fingers. That would lead to a terrible tone and incredible finger cramps. The fingers cradle the bow... just like they do in a good pool grip. Youngsters are often give a visual like "imagine holding a [flower, butterfly, baby bird, etc.] in your hand without crushing it".

Like in the pic below:

Sloppy Pockets:

Take a look at my profile. I'm also a musician. And yes, being a bass player, I do play the drums as well, but I dabble compared to my main instrument. Why would I bring that up, unless I knew the motion used?

As to the violin bow, well, you got me. I don't play the violin. However, I have friends who play (including my ex), and they do use the finger tips. Maybe it's a difference of technique (my ex, for example, was classically trained).

EDIT: Besides, the point of the post was to demonstrate that any wrist movement in these activities, have very little to do (or not related at all) with an underhanded delivery of the cue. That was the main point.

-Sean

 

[Slasher]

Why don't you ask a drummer about that instead of a championship pool player? You seem to know as little about playing the drums as you do about playing the violin. I play both. Trust me, the wrists are always used in playing the drums, even in a "buzz" roll. Just because you can't see the movement in a video don't mean the player isn't experiencing it. No wrist, no power at all. Period. The fingers are merely levers used to control the movement of the sticks.

BTW a violin bow is not held by the tips of the fingers. That would lead to a terrible tone and incredible finger cramps. The fingers cradle the bow... just like they do in a good pool grip. Youngsters are often give a visual like "imagine holding a [flower, butterfly, baby bird, etc.] in your hand without crushing it".

Like in the pic below:

Thats gotta be worth two in the bush

 

[CJ Wiley]

piano

Sloppy Pockets:

Take a look at my profile. I'm also a musician. And yes, being a bass player, I do play the drums as well, but I dabble compared to my main instrument. Why would I bring that up, unless I knew the motion used?

As to the violin bow, well, you got me. I don't play the violin. However, I have friends who play (including my ex), and they do use the finger tips. Maybe it's a difference of technique (my ex, for example, was classically trained).

EDIT: Besides, the point of the post was to demonstrate that any wrist movement in these activities, have very little to do (or not related at all) with an underhanded delivery of the cue. That was the main point.

-Sean

I play the piano and I also use my finger tips. The fingers are the "keys" in pool.:groucho: The Key to what I'm saying is how you Pre Cock your wrist. If you don't do that then you can't possibly relate to the Hammer "uncocking" power source that many of us use in breaking, but it's also utilized in the stroke, only you can't see it.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Sometime we have to begin with the end in mind

CJ:

Obviously, someone that knows what they're talking about with muscles stands a much better chance of getting his point across. For instance, in another thread/subforum, "duckie"/Greg once wrote this:



(You can click on the blue/gray "swirlie" arrow next to his name in that quote, and it will take you right to the post this excerpt was taken from.)

Those that've taken basic anatomy science classes know that muscle fibers work by contraction -- they NEVER "expand." So here's a case where ENGLISH is dead-on.

Another thing -- it's very easy to confuse "wrist motion" with actual finger motion. Driving a hammer forward in a "wristy" motion actually does use the wrist. However, you must maintain control of the hammer at all times, with a firm-ish grip. You don't, for example, open and close your hand to drive the hammer forward.

Compare this motion, to, say, the action a drummer makes when striking the drumhead. How about a demonstration? Let's take a look at probably the most technically-gifted drummer of today, Mike Mangini (formerly of the Steve Vai band, now playing for Dream Theater):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=31c-FL0ZlZ0

Although most of the "stroke" in hitting the drumheads -- with a power stoke -- resembles a hammer strike, take careful note of what happens at 2:15 (two minutes, fifteen seconds) in the video, when Mike goes into rapid-fire one-handed single-stroke rolls on the toms (Mike is in the Guinness Book of World Records, by the way, as having the fastest single-stroke roll in the world):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=31c-FL0ZlZ0#t=2m15s

That is NOT wrist! That is mostly finger action -- of the hand rapidly opening and closing, the drumstick "pivoting" inside the pinch between the index finger's second joint and the thumb, the sticking being driven downwards with rapid flexion of the middle/ring/pinkie fingers, with very little wrist movement. He's letting the drumstick rebound off the tom drumhead's surface, and then snapping his cradle fingers (middle/ring/pinkie) closed to return the stick to the drumhead.

Later on, obviously, Mike moves to full hammer strikes on the toms, when he goes into the powerful grand finale, but he does so because the movements are much more coarse.

I would offer that the "wrist flick" you see in Shane's and other pros' strokes, is more due to this opening/closing of the fingers -- like a very gentle single-shot version of a drummer doing a rapid one-handed single-stroke roll -- than of actual flexion of the wrist downward (in a powerful hammer or drumhead strike) as you suggest. Two TOTALLY different movements.

EDIT: even that "single-shot version of a drummer doing a rapid one-handed single-stroke roll" is not a full corollary to the pool stroke, as the drummer is applying a downwards "swing" of the implement via closing those cradle fingers. I don't think any pool or snooker pro does that -- the chance of applying yaw to the cue is too great, and would offer questionable benefit anyway.

Thoughts?
-Sean

To relate to what I'm saying you would have to take a pool cue like it was a hammer. Cock your wrist up with the pool cue like you were going to drive a nail. Then FREEZE that wrist position and go down like you were going to hit the cue ball.

Notice how this changes a lot of arm/wrist angles for you? I have no idea how you look when you play so I have no frame of reference. In this position your wrist must uncock down, not up like you were saying before. Sometime we have to begin with the end in mind to understand different "paradigms" as Covey would say.

 

[Mikjary]

Driving a nail emphasizes the power stroke in the opposite direction of a pool stroke. On the up or backstroke with the hammer, the movement is similar to the forward stroke in pool. As the arm rises, the wrist flexes like the flick of the wrist.

The back stroke in pool employs a similar motion as driving a nail, without the emphasis on power. I get the idea of a measured stroke with both. The back swing is slower than the forward swing. And if you dog it, you can swing your cue like a hammer, too! :grin:

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

something I do personally

Driving a nail emphasizes the power stroke in the opposite direction of a pool stroke. On the up or backstroke with the hammer, the movement is similar to the forward stroke in pool. As the arm rises, the wrist flexes like the flick of the wrist.

The back stroke in pool employs a similar motion as driving a nail, without the emphasis on power. I get the idea of a measured stroke with both. The back swing is slower than the forward swing. And if you dog it, you can swing your cue like a hammer, too! :grin:

Best,
Mike

You're right, I'm just making the point that if you pre cock your wrist like completely raising a hammer, then it will work in the other direction (if you hold that wrist position while coming down on the cue ball). Then when going though the cue ball you let it release so the tip goes down towards the table, like the hammer head would in the analogy or hammering a nail.

I also said I don't recommend this, it's just something I do personally. Some players may not even know it's an option, and that's what makes this forum useful. If everyone did everything the same there would be no need for discussion. "Food for Thought" 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Mikjary]

That's cool Sean, my father owned a lumber yard, and I was doing a lot of hammering at a young age, as was Earl Stickland and many other players.

That's right, you are one of the first of the "regulars" on here that have acutally tried to understand something I've suggested. If you don't pre cock your wrist it is just like hammering nails "face up" like you observed. You can "pre set" your wrist either way and most people DO NOT pre cock them like I do. Mine's from playing so much tennis, golf and martial arts, so unless you have done these things you should just "pre set" your wrist as you normally do. You'll just experience less "release".

The feeling of the FORCE/Power with the wrist is the same and that is the main thing that I try to get people to feel to dramatically improve their stroke. I just got an email from a guy in Poland that is using my techniques and has improved an amazing amount in just two weeks. That's what makes it all worth while to me....R>E>S>U>L>T>S>'The Game is the Teacher'

The way I personally change this is I pre cock my wrist up so it can ONLY move down. This is a powerful technique, but not one I recommend.

CLICK LINK TO SEE HOW SHANE DOES THIS:

CJ,

Shane uses a stroke I've mentioned previously and took a lot of flack over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=naiMHnSQOLI#t=26s

I was shown the stroke by several top players in different degrees, but it was the same method. It's what you're saying about the power stroke.

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

You're right, I'm just making the point that if you pre cock your wrist like completely raising a hammer, then it will work in the other direction (if you hold that wrist position while coming down on the cue ball). Then when going though the cue ball you let it release so the tip goes down towards the table, like the hammer head would in the analogy or hammering a nail.
I also said I don't recommend this, it's just something I do personally. Some players may not even know it's an option, and that's what makes this forum useful. If everyone did everything the same there would be no need for discussion. "Food for Thought" 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ,

That explains it fairly well, I do do it when breaking, but, in the follow through.

By pre-setting the wrist, you can better employ it right before or during contact if you can time it right. Is that correct?

 

[CJ Wiley]

look at the angle of the wrist and the relationship to the right elbow

CJ,

That explains it fairly well, I do do it when breaking, but, in the follow through.

By pre-setting the wrist, you can better employ it right before or during contact if you can time it right. Is that correct?

Not really. I'm saying the wrists move up and down in the pool stoke, if you use your wrists. Most players use the up motion because they pre set their wrist down (which is the natural thing you would do). I pre cock my wrist UP so that when I go through the ball my wrist is going down like I am hammering a nail down.

You can't see the motion in the pool stroke, but it's happening, just since the cue appears to be going straight you can't see it. You can in the follow through of the break though. Just look at the angle of the wrist and the relationship to the right elbow in this picture and imagine what it had to do to get there....the wrists have to release down and that creates a "lever effect" which generates a lot of power effortlessly.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

..the wrists have to release down and that creates a "lever effect" which generates a lot of power effortlessly.

Wha...?

pj
chgo

 

[duckie]

Not one mentioned of cocking the wrist in using a hammer for power.

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Hammer-Safely
http://artofmanliness.com/2009/09/29/how-to-use-a-hammer/
http://www.ehow.com/how_12133_hammer-safely.html
http://www.toolsnob.com/archives/2007/03/how_to_use_a_hammer.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer

 

[ENGLISH!]

CJ,

Yes, that's what I was 'trying' to say. I do get it. You create a more acute type angle between the cue & the forearm that can be 'snapped' out. Similiar to holding the angle in the golf or baseball swing until the proper time for the releasing of the angle. Release the angle too early & lose power as you then are dragging it instead of utilizing the flailing motion of the two levers. Pre-set it & hold it until the proper moment to 'apply' it. With this method you can lean into it.

I may not be using exact terminology but I now see it with 'real eyes'. I now have two(2) different styles to utilize.

Thanks. That was eye opening, or should I say mind opening. 'Pre-setting the hammer' is what I think did it.

Best Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

additional kinetic energy can be applied to the lever motion

Not one mentioned of cocking the wrist in using a hammer for power.

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Hammer-Safely
http://artofmanliness.com/2009/09/29/how-to-use-a-hammer/
http://www.ehow.com/how_12133_hammer-safely.html
http://www.toolsnob.com/archives/2007/03/how_to_use_a_hammer.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer

TRY THIS ONE: http://www.leaderboard.com/GLOSSARY_WRISTCOCK

WRIST COCK

Grab a hammer as if you were going to pound a nail into the computer screen.

Now draw the hammer back in preparation for the forward thrust.

STOP THERE!

Freeze in that position, for two reasons:

1) We don't want you to really smash your computer screen. You wouldn't be able to read the rest of this definition.

2) Your wrist is already in the cocked position. So we have successfully illustrated what is meant by "wrist cock".

Cocking the wrist means to angle it such that the muscle at the underside of your elbow is fully extended. During the swing of a hammer or the swing of a golf club, additional kinetic energy can be applied to the lever motion of the arm by contracting this muscle, which pulls your wrist towards that nail you were going to smack.

• • •

When swinging a golf club, four cascading lever systems work together (you hope) to bring the clubface into contact with the ball as forcefully as possible, yet with sufficient control to propel your ball down the fairway, rather than into the woods.

The first lever is the torquing of your hips (with your shoulders) during the backswing, only to unwind during the downswing.

Attached to that lever is your leading elbow, which is a second lever. Though many instructors prefer that the elbow remain straight at all times, there is additional leverage to be gained by flexing it at the top of the backswing and extending it during the downswing.

Your wrist makes the third lever (again, many intructors would argue that the wrist should uncock passively through the swing rather than in a forceful manner).

Finally, there is the fourth lever, which is the flex of the club shaft itself.

 

[nobcitypool]

*The kinetic energy of an object is the energy which it possesses due to its
In classical mechanics, the kinetic energy of a non-rotating object of mass m traveling at a speed v is ½ mv². In relativistic mechanics, this is only a good approximation when v is much less than the speed of light.

CJ, that's essentially F=ma. Did you get that from Wikipedia? Just do some more searches, you can get to Einstein and e=mcsquared, perhaps you can design the first nuclear powered pool cue.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Looks like Shane is the first nuclear powered player

CJ, that's essentially F=ma. Did you get that from Wikipedia? Just do some more searches, you can get to Einstein and e=mcsquared, perhaps you can design the first nuclear powered pool cue.

:wink: Yes Indeed...Looks like Shane is the first nuclear powered player so it may be the right time in history for a nuclear powered cue.

m = f/a

 

[sfleinen]

:wink: Yes Indeed...Looks like Shane is the first nuclear powered player so it may be the right time in history for a nuclear powered cue.

[...]
m = f/a

Just curious, but what does a pic of a launching space shuttle have to do with anything "nuclear"?

-Sean

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Just curious, but what does a pic of a launching space shuttle have to do with anything "nuclear"?

-Sean

I, for one, appreciate the pretty pictures. It gives me something nice to look at until the post is over.

pj
chgo