WRISTS - Views from the cheap seats

Sam -- From what CJ has said, at least one of his reasons for maintaining a downward angle on the cue for most shots is that he uses swerve to offset squirt. He feels that it is too difficult to consistently compensate for squirt with a more level cue. He feels he can calibrate his shot speed reliably so that swerve offsets squirt.

Some posters in the other thread have expressed their doubts as to the wisdom of this approach for mere mortals.
 

So on the first shot, clearly above center cueing, with as level a stroke as he can get (this is the last frame before CB contact):

Shane01.jpg


Do me a favor guys. I like watching these videos, but if you want me to get something specific out of them, please give me a timestamp of the shot you want me to see, so that I don't have to do what I did above to every shot :smile:.

Thanks.
 
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He feels he can calibrate his shot speed reliably so that swerve offsets squirt.

Some posters in the other thread have expressed their doubts as to the wisdom of this approach for mere mortals.

Do you think that this is a reasonable approach? I mean, really, the variables involved just seem to take it out of the realm of reasonableness, even for someone who does this all the time, especially when there are other means to get to the same, or nearly same, result.

Don't get me wrong, I have seen professional athletes (in all sports) do things that just seem to defy all reason. This one just seems to be over the edge to me. Of course, there may be specific shots where this is required, and I believe you should have the knowledge to execute it when it comes up, but not as a matter of course...

Now, having said all that, I can say that, for myself, if I had the CB on the head spot, and the OB half way between the foot spot and the foot rail (a pretty thin cut), and I wanted to make the OB in one of the bottom corners, I would probably apply as much right (gearing) english as I felt comfortable with to try and minimize CIT, and then account for the squirt and very slight swerve that the CB would make. But, man, that's hit-or-miss...
 
Yes, and forward roll with the first couple bank shots.

Looks to me like he has his cue as close to or even on the rail on every shot. That is considered a level cue. It is as level as he can possibly get it, so how can that be considered "coming down on the cue ball"? Coming down on the cb would naturally mean having the butt raised higher than is necessary due to the rail height. Implying that it means something other than that would be absurd because it was stated that only the pros do this "technique".

You can also clearly see in the photo that Swest provided that he is hitting the cb above center. So, of course it has follow on it, what else would it have?
 
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I think that it is nonsense to claim that all professional pool shooters shoot down on the ball.

What do you think? Does anyone out there agree with me? Please don't post here if you don't...

Not all, but there are certainly a lot of high level players that do.

I know several people in particular, who don't bend down that low.
That are basically semi jacked up on all shots, and they are aiming high or low, left or right on the cueball, but the angle of the cue is ALWAYS angled down.

One in particular is asked all the time how he follows the ball while "aiming down"
His explanation is that despite his being semi jacked up, from his perspective, he is still hitting high on the ball that he sees.
Guy plays jam up too.
 
sweat:
...as long as your tip strikes the CB above the equator of the CB as aligned with your stick (i.e. the equator of the CB tilts to the same angle as your stick), then yes, the CB will have immediate forward roll.
With a nearly level cue the CB gets immediate forward rotation when hit any distance above the equator, but it will only have immediate non-skidding roll if hit with almost maximum follow.

I think it's difficult or impossible to get immediate non-skidding roll when hitting more than a few degrees downward on the ball.

pj
chgo
 
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With a nearly level cue the CB gets immediate forward rotation when hit any distance above the equator, but it will only have immediate non-skidding roll if hit with almost maximum follow.

I think it's difficult or impossible to get immediate non-skidding roll when hitting more than a few degrees downward on the ball.

pj
chgo

Roger that. I concur. I was a little sloppy in putting down my thoughts.
 
Not all, but there are certainly a lot of high level players that do.

I know several people in particular, who don't bend down that low.
That are basically semi jacked up on all shots, and they are aiming high or low, left or right on the cueball, but the angle of the cue is ALWAYS angled down.

One in particular is asked all the time how he follows the ball while "aiming down"
His explanation is that despite his being semi jacked up, from his perspective, he is still hitting high on the ball that he sees.
Guy plays jam up too.


I think that there are many high level players that, for whatever reasons, learn to do things all kinds of cockamamy ways and have huge success: sideways chicken wing swarps; head over the wrong eye; jacked up strokes; massively loose finger tip grips; rigor mortis death grips; oil pump strokes; and even raising up on each and every shot.

BUT does that mean those players are entitled to come here and say it's the best way, the secret way, the advanced way, the road player way to pool nerdvana and a technique that should be adopted by the general pool playing public?!

No.

All these and more are the idiosyncratic methods players naturally fall into and make work all the way to championship level. It has nothing to do with the average pool player. Players find things that work and then try and find an explanation for why it works. The problems occur when they try and export that to the general populace as the the right or correct way to play.

Lou Figueroa
 
I think that there are many high level players that, for whatever reasons, learn to do things all kinds of cockamamy ways and have huge success: sideways chicken wing swarps; head over the wrong eye; jacked up strokes; massively loose finger tip grips; rigor mortis death grips; oil pump strokes; and even raising up on each and every shot.

BUT does that mean those players are entitled to come here and say it's the best way, the secret way, the advanced way, the road player way to pool nerdvana and a technique that should be adopted by the general pool playing public?!

No.

All these and more are the idiosyncratic methods players naturally fall into and make work all the way to championship level. It has nothing to do with the average pool player. Players find things that work and then try and find an explanation for why it works. The problems occur when they try and export that to the general populace as the the right or correct way to play.

Lou Figueroa

I agree with you completely. I know my way works and nobody could disagree with me, but I still don't go around telling everyone about my top secret strategy I like to call "ride the 9 on every shot". :)
 
BUT does that mean those players are entitled to come here and say it's the best way, the secret way, the advanced way, the road player way to pool nerdvana and a technique that should be adopted by the general pool playing public?!


Lou Figueroa

What if someone were to discuss their cockamammy way of doing things but at the same time warned that it is not conventional or might not be for everyone, is that allowed?
 
So on the first shot, clearly above center cueing, with as level a stroke as he can get (this is the last frame before CB contact):

Shane01.jpg


Do me a favor guys. I like watching these videos, but if you want me to get something specific out of them, please give me a timestamp of the shot you want me to see, so that I don't have to do what I did above to every shot :smile:.

Thanks.

How about the last frame after contact, it appears to be a downward stroke.
 
How about the last frame after contact, it appears to be a downward stroke.

So sorry, I was going to isolate and post the 5 or 6 frames after the one I posted, but I've been doing some other things (preparing for a community yard sale that's happening tomorrow), and now that I'm in bed, I find that my laptop interface to the YouTube videos doesn't work like my regular desktop, and I can't frame-by-frame...

I'll have to do this tomorrow afternoon (if someone hasn't beat me to it by then).

g'night.
 
I think that there are many high level players that, for whatever reasons, learn to do things all kinds of cockamamy ways and have huge success: sideways chicken wing swarps; head over the wrong eye; jacked up strokes; massively loose finger tip grips; rigor mortis death grips; oil pump strokes; and even raising up on each and every shot.

BUT does that mean those players are entitled to come here and say it's the best way, the secret way, the advanced way, the road player way to pool nerdvana and a technique that should be adopted by the general pool playing public?!

No.

All these and more are the idiosyncratic methods players naturally fall into and make work all the way to championship level. It has nothing to do with the average pool player. Players find things that work and then try and find an explanation for why it works. The problems occur when they try and export that to the general populace as the the right or correct way to play.

Lou Figueroa

I can agree with this for the most part.
No 2 people are identical.
No 2 sets of mechanics are identical, despite some of them being very close.

On of the things i find interesting, is how certain people, who obviously do NOT play at a high level, feel that they can tell someone who does, what is right and wrong, when they can never reproduce what the high level guy does on a pool table in the first place.
That has always annoyed me to no end.

The other thing that annoys me is when you have the general pool playing populace, that has no chance of ever executing anything like the top shelf pro, crying foul when they never ever experience the same results, when given a tip on how to do something by a top shelf player.
Not that the information is wrong, mind you, but because they don't have the ability or knowledge to execute it properly.

I mean, i understand how things look on paper, how things are in theory, but sometimes, that just doesn't translate into something that is effective, ON an actual pool table.
At least in my opinion.

I am a firm believer in the THOSE WHO CAN, DO; THOSE WHO CAN'T TEACH idiom.
Obviously, there are some exceptions to this in pool, especially, when the teacher is or was a high level pool player.

But another thing that is to be noted, is this is all about egos.
Pool is an ego based game.

As such, no one likes to be told that they don't know what they are doing, even if they suck at pool.
God help you if you try to tell someone that has been playing for years, that they don't know what is up.
Let alone, if you try to tell the guys who could never ever play high level pool, but who are experts on all the explanations of pool, how they don't know what they are talking about, simply because explanations only go SO FAR, and pool isn't about explanations, but about results ON the table.

The "What pros know, and what they "think" they know, vs all the experts that can't play, who are masters of technical data" debate will continue for all time.
But debate isn't going to cause all the technical guys to suddenly jump speeds and play like professionals.
It's beyond them.
 
What if someone were to discuss their cockamammy way of doing things but at the same time warned that it is not conventional or might not be for everyone, is that allowed?


It's all good. Even all the hand wringing by the fanboys :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
I can agree with this for the most part.
No 2 people are identical.
No 2 sets of mechanics are identical, despite some of them being very close.

On of the things i find interesting, is how certain people, who obviously do NOT play at a high level, feel that they can tell someone who does, what is right and wrong, when they can never reproduce what the high level guy does on a pool table in the first place.
That has always annoyed me to no end.

The other thing that annoys me is when you have the general pool playing populace, that has no chance of ever executing anything like the top shelf pro, crying foul when they never ever experience the same results, when given a tip on how to do something by a top shelf player.
Not that the information is wrong, mind you, but because they don't have the ability or knowledge to execute it properly.

I mean, i understand how things look on paper, how things are in theory, but sometimes, that just doesn't translate into something that is effective, ON an actual pool table.
At least in my opinion.

I am a firm believer in the THOSE WHO CAN, DO; THOSE WHO CAN'T TEACH idiom.
Obviously, there are some exceptions to this in pool, especially, when the teacher is or was a high level pool player.

But another thing that is to be noted, is this is all about egos.
Pool is an ego based game.

As such, no one likes to be told that they don't know what they are doing, even if they suck at pool.
God help you if you try to tell someone that has been playing for years, that they don't know what is up.
Let alone, if you try to tell the guys who could never ever play high level pool, but who are experts on all the explanations of pool, how they don't know what they are talking about, simply because explanations only go SO FAR, and pool isn't about explanations, but about results ON the table.

The "What pros know, and what they "think" they know, vs all the experts that can't play, who are masters of technical data" debate will continue for all time.
But debate isn't going to cause all the technical guys to suddenly jump speeds and play like professionals.
It's beyond them.


I'm not sure it's a question of right vs wrong, more like science vs belief. Or, describing (packaging/marketing) a technique in a way that makes it sound like something new, when it is not.

Something else to consider is that even us lower level players can execute the vast majority of strokes and techniques. What separates the amateur from the pro is consistency. I mean, who among us has not nailed spectacular draw shots, cut shots, combos, or banks? Who amongst us has not made the CB get up and dance to our beck and call? The problem is doing that day-to-day, session to session, or even from shot-to-shot. The pros aren't so much capable of uber-techniques beyond mere mortals, they are just capable of doing it more frequently.

The ego thing, well that's not so much about pool, it's just testosterone :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
I can agree with this for the most part.
No 2 people are identical.
No 2 sets of mechanics are identical, despite some of them being very close.

On of the things i find interesting, is how certain people, who obviously do NOT play at a high level, feel that they can tell someone who does, what is right and wrong, when they can never reproduce what the high level guy does on a pool table in the first place.
That has always annoyed me to no end.

The other thing that annoys me is when you have the general pool playing populace, that has no chance of ever executing anything like the top shelf pro, crying foul when they never ever experience the same results, when given a tip on how to do something by a top shelf player.
Not that the information is wrong, mind you, but because they don't have the ability or knowledge to execute it properly.

I mean, i understand how things look on paper, how things are in theory, but sometimes, that just doesn't translate into something that is effective, ON an actual pool table.
At least in my opinion.

I am a firm believer in the THOSE WHO CAN, DO; THOSE WHO CAN'T TEACH idiom.
Obviously, there are some exceptions to this in pool, especially, when the teacher is or was a high level pool player.

But another thing that is to be noted, is this is all about egos.
Pool is an ego based game.

As such, no one likes to be told that they don't know what they are doing, even if they suck at pool.
God help you if you try to tell someone that has been playing for years, that they don't know what is up.
Let alone, if you try to tell the guys who could never ever play high level pool, but who are experts on all the explanations of pool, how they don't know what they are talking about, simply because explanations only go SO FAR, and pool isn't about explanations, but about results ON the table.

The "What pros know, and what they "think" they know, vs all the experts that can't play, who are masters of technical data" debate will continue for all time.
But debate isn't going to cause all the technical guys to suddenly jump speeds and play like professionals.
It's beyond them.

Your post sounds all well and good, but you are missing some key pertinent points.

1. Just because someone can't play at a very high level, does NOT equate to the FACT that they can do every shot a pro can do, and maybe even some the pros can't do.

2. Playing at a very high level is NOT about what shots you can and cannot make. It's about how the subconscious works in the individual to make every shot work like it's supposed to work. Playing at the pro level is all about doing what any A player can also do, but doing it with less errors thrown in there.

3. Just because someone is a master at doing something does NOT equate to them having a clue about how to go about teaching someone else to do the same thing. Almost everyone on here is a master at walking. Yet, if you try and explain how to walk to someone else, once you get past the very basic of bend your knee and move your leg in front of the other leg and put your foot down, then repeat with the other leg, you are totally lost and have no clue how to explain what you actually are doing.

4. Thinking that just because one can play at a very high level equates to them knowing what and how to also teach is nothing more than an ego trip. Stating that anyone who can't play at a high level teaches nonsense is also an ego trip. Some high level players ARE very capable of teaching AND playing at a high level, they are the exception. Saying that a high level player can't teach or explain what he is doing is no more derogatory than saying that you can't explain how to walk correctly. It just is what it is.
 
What if someone were to discuss their cockamammy way of doing things but at the same time warned that it is not conventional or might not be for everyone, is that allowed?

You should know from the others threads that the statement you just made IS the acceptable way of explaining it. And, that CJ was commended for adjusting to saying that. Also, realize that just saying that does not equate to being able to say anything and "get away with it". You still have to follow the laws of physics, and aren't allowed to state that physics is wrong and doesn't apply because I THINK I know what I am doing.
 
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