CJ Wiley's "Touch" of Inside 3 Part Pocket System

I'm not questioning the technique, I was simply trying to figure out what you meant in the post below. You stated you tried the technique and it felt like you get a fuller hit. I don't understand that as it seems like applying inside english would require a bigger cut to offset the throw from the cut and the english. Not trying to argue, just trying to understand to see if I'm missing or misunderstanding something.



Let us say, we have a shot and it’s a 30-degree cut to dead center pocket. Now the same shot using CJ technique, you will be targeting the inside of the outside pocket, which will now become a 25-degree cut.

Now with cj technique, center cue ball will be a hair inside of the vertical axis of the cue ball to the contact point on the object ball on the 25 degree cut shot I talk about above. This will be his physical alignment for the shot. He will simply just shoot and try to deflect the ball in with a fuller hit but using no spin. It is more of a stun shot for pocketing and cue ball control. It is pretty simple for me to understand and apply.

I am not trying to sell you on anything, it doesn't matter to me if you use it or not. it just gives me something to talk about :) I also could not care less if CJ is on here trying to promote his new dvd because he seems to be giving out a lot of free interesting info along the way.
 
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It is true that the continental tennis grip is used, this is too lock the wrist from any side ways motion.

The fingers propel the stick forward. Like CJ says the feel is like a finger print and is unique to the individual.

This is a deadly acurate grip and with a little practice you will see the benefit.

The cue does not stay in the palm of the hand, it ends up in the palm of the hand after the stroke (finish).

I'm having a lot of fun with it.

John

i like the grip too and it can be manipulated easily for shot speed without a wrist break.
 
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ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Let us say, we have a shot and it’s a 30-degree cut to dead center pocket. Now the same shot using CJ technique, you will be targeting the inside of the outside pocket, which will now become a 25-degree cut.

Now with cj technique, center cue ball will be a hair inside of the vertical axis of the cue ball to the contact point on the object ball on the 25 degree cut shot I talk about above. This will be his physical alignment for the shot. He will simply just shoot and try to deflect the ball in with a fuller hit but using no spin. It is pretty simple for me to understand and apply.

CJ is also hitting with a 'firmer' hit so the cue ball is swerving(deflecting) but the slight spin (actual, but unperceived by CJ) is not throwing or pushing as I have always said for inside spin before AZB, the object ball because of the speed of the shot. One can hit 'firmer' with this method because the fuller hit will 'kill' the cue ball more & not let it run as loose and the slight inside spin will also 'kill' it some as opposed to outside running spin.

I have been using this for more than 40 years for isolated shots but not as a normal ongoing shooting method.

Just my $0.02 attempt to help out,
 
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nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not trying to discredit the concept in the least. I have tried it and didn't find much difference aside from the path of the CB after contact with the OB. I'm just wondering if the slight amount of inside english you are putting on the CB doesn't cause enough deflection that it does in fact end up creating a higher cut angle to offset the inside english and CIT. I'm not asking you or anybody else to sell me on it, I'm just trying to understand it. I can't give it a fair try unless I understand it correctly.

Let us say, we have a shot and it’s a 30-degree cut to dead center pocket. Now the same shot using CJ technique, you will be targeting the inside of the outside pocket, which will now become a 25-degree cut.

Now with cj technique, center cue ball will be a hair inside of the vertical axis of the cue ball to the contact point on the object ball on the 25 degree cut shot I talk about above. This will be his physical alignment for the shot. He will simply just shoot and try to deflect the ball in with a fuller hit but using no spin. It is more of a stun shot for pocketing and cue ball control. It is pretty simple for me to understand and apply.

I am not trying to sell you on anything, it doesn't matter to me if you use it or not. it just gives me something to talk about :) I also could not care less if CJ is on here trying to promote his new dvd because he seems to be giving out a lot of free interesting info along the way.
 
Ok first, let us just leave the “inside english” out of this because it is not involved in this technique other than the word “inside”. Now I am sure there is a way to make this technique work using inside english but i think that would make it more complex and unreliable but that’s just my opinion and it’s not worth my effort to find out.

Now I am 99% sure, I am doing it correctly and this is exactly what I see and feel. When I am in the correct alignment for this technique, it actually feels like my alignment is wrong. I guess that is mostly because I am not targeting the center pocket and the cueing line/alignment is not what I am used too.

Now I noticed when I shoot with this technique it gave me a feeling that I did not have to hit the exact contact point on the object ball to make it because I am just trying to deflect it with a feeling of forcing it somewhere in the pocket. If I missed the contact point, I would still make it and that is the feeling it gave me. I also did not feel like I had control over where the object ball would go in the pocket but it always seemed to hit center.

This was about the accuracy part of the technique. Will i ever use this technique, i doubt it but you never know.
 
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ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Ok first, let us just leave the “inside english” out of this because it is not involved in this technique other than the word “inside”. Now I am sure there is a way to make this technique work using inside english but i think that would make it more complex and unreliable but that’s just my opinion and it’s not worth my effort to find out.

Now I am 99% sure, I am doing it correctly and this is exactly what I see and feel. When I am in the correct alignment for this technique, it actually feels like my alignment is wrong. I guess that is mostly because I am not targeting the center pocket and the cueing line/alignment is not what I am used too.

Now I noticed when I shoot with this technique it gave me a feeling that I did not have to hit the exact contact point on the object ball to make it because I am just trying to deflect it with a feeling of forcing it somewhere in the pocket. If I missed the contact point, I would still make it and that is the feeling it gave me. I also did not feel like I had control over where the object ball would go in the pocket also.

This was about the accuracy part of the technique.

Fairly well stated. It is not about english spin at all. If it were you would aim at the other side of the pocket & use the spin induced throw & the collision induce throw to pocket the ball. That would depend on hitting the shot with the correct speed for the' throws' to take affect. Those are not the principles that CJ is relying on. He is relying on a bit of deflection/squirt with less than enough or no swerve/spinback of the cue ball & is basing it on the firmer speed of the shot. He is not hitting it softly so the swerve/spinback does not occur & the throws do not occur to any real degree. If the shot is hit correctly the ball is pocketed to the full hit side of the pocket. If the cue ball is deflected/squirted a bit more it is pocketed in the center or thin side of the pocket. It's just that simple. However it still requires that the initial aim is not TOO full. But that too is part of CJ's point. If he misses, he knows why & he knows how to correct it.

Just my nickel's worth to try and help & please keep in mind that I am not an instructor.
 
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acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
There's something else to this that CJ may or may not have mentioned elsewhere (sorry, wish I had the time to read all his posts, but can't). Given a consistent hit and speed, the inside not only translates into the cut angle he describes, the cue ball also comes off the object ball, especially at half ball cuts or ones close to it, picking up no outside spin (an aspect of collision-induced throw that players tend to neglect or think of as "normal"), so that on e.g. new cloth, the angles the cue ball comes off a rail/rails it contacts (especially the first two, there's usually enough friction for minor compensation like this to wear off soon after) may seem "truer". Look out for this, it's a truly interesting side effect. The difference may be closer to negligible on used cloth, but remember that pros are used to playing on freshly set-up equipment more than the average person.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
John,

I tried it yesterday & I agree on its accuracy. However, it became uncomfortable for me in my forearm.

I've voiced that it may be because I am a low eyed shooter & I think that the more bend is creating too much tension on the top side of my forearm.

Do I understand you crorrectly? Are you holding the cue more in your fingers than a normal tennis grip & only ending up in a normal tennis grip upon contact & after?

Thanks in advance,

Good Morning Rick

My index finger knuckle is almost on top of the cue. The cue rests between that knuckle and the first joint on my index finger. My wrist is turned out which locks it in place. Then the fingers go to work to groove the stroke. A tremendouis amount of power can be developed using the fingers to propel the stick forward.

I like it, I dont feel the tension in my forearm that you talk about, Never really paid any attention to it.

You may have to change where you normally grip the cue to accommadated the new grip. My grip placement on the cue varies depending on what I want to do.

I am always searching for ways to better my fundementals. I have worked with the "V" grip but even the "V" grip will allow your wrist to move sideways. This grip is not for me nor is the established craddle grip.

I am a casual player, but still practice everyday and love it.

Have a good day

John
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
There's something else to this that CJ may or may not have mentioned elsewhere (sorry, wish I had the time to read all his posts, but can't). Given a consistent hit and speed, the inside not only translates into the cut angle he describes, the cue ball also comes off the object ball, especially at half ball cuts or ones close to it, picking up no outside spin (an aspect of collision-induced throw that players tend to neglect or think of as "normal"), so that on e.g. new cloth, the angles the cue ball comes off a rail/rails in contacts (especially the first two, there's usually enough friction for minor compensation like this to wear off soon after) may seem "truer". Look out for this, it's a truly interesting side effect. The difference may be closer to negligible on used cloth, but remember that pros are used to playing on freshly set-up equipment more than the average person.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

David,

Good & valid point. And as you said, often overlooked or forgotten. I almost never have to consider it as I am almost always hitting with at least a bit of outside or inside so as to better control position. But those that normally hit 'center' should notice the difference more.

Best Regards,
Rick
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Good Morning Rick

My index finger knuckle is almost on top of the cue. The cue rests between that knuckle and the first joint on my index finger. My wrist is turned out which locks it in place. Then the fingers go to work to groove the stroke. A tremendouis amount of power can be developed using the fingers to propel the stick forward.

I like it, I dont feel the tension in my forearm that you talk about, Never really paid any attention to it.

You may have to change where you normally grip the cue to accommadated the new grip. My grip placement on the cue varies depending on what I want to do.

I am always searching for ways to better my fundementals. I have worked with the "V" grip but even the "V" grip will allow your wrist to move sideways. This grip is not for me nor is the established craddle grip.

I am a casual player, but still practice everyday and love it.

Have a good day

John

Good morning to you, John,

I think you are correct about where I need to hold the cue (a little farther back). I think I just need to find & put my 'fingerprint' on it. I have been using the 'V grip' for so long that changing it or any one thing usually requires some other related adjustment just as in golf.

When you say your wrist is turned out, do you mean it is 'bowed away from your body? I think this may relate to me having to pronate a bit to get the cue into the 'slot' to 'track' straight.

I may be holding the cue a bit too long in the 'tennis' grip resulting in it being too much in my palm, which could also be the cause of the discomfort in my forearm as there is not such an angle when swinging a tennis racket. Which I have done probably more times than I have stroked a pool cue.

What size hands do you have? I use a 4 1/2 inch tennis grip. I can't seem to get my index finger/hand knuckle 'on top' without the cue resting toward the finger tip side of the middle section of my index finger, especially when I pronate to get it to track straight.

It may take a bit of time, but I'll get it because I definitely 'real eyes' the potential benefit, even when I am probably not doing it 100% correctly.

Thanks for your assistance & stay on 'track',
 
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One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good morning to you, John,

I think you are correct about where I need to hold the cue (a little farther back). I think I just need to find & put my 'fingerprint' on it. I have been using the 'V grip' for so long that changing it or any one thing usually requires some other related adjustment just as in golf.

When you say your wrist is turned out, do you mean it is 'bowed away from your body? I think this may relate to me having to pronate a bit to get the cue into the 'slot' to 'track' straight.

I may be holding the cue a bit too long in the 'tennis' grip resulting in it being too much in my palm, which could also be the cause of the discomfort in my forearm as there is not such an angle when swinging a tennis racket. Which I have done probably more times than I have stroked a pool cue.

What size hands do you have? I use a 4 1/2 inch tennis grip. I can't seem to get my index finger/hand knuckle 'on top' without the cue resting toward the finger tip side of the middle section of my index finger, especially when I pronate to get it to track straight.

It may take a bit of time, but I'll get it because I definitely 'real eyes' the potential benefit, even when I am probably not doing it 100% correctly.

Thanks for your assistance & stay on 'track',

I am not an Instructor, just a player.

My hands are 4" wide and 8" long I have pretty big fingers. I also play with a McDermott G-206 cue which has a small diameter butt section. Cheap cue, but man I like the way that thing hits. I also like the feed back.

The cue rests between the index finger knuckle and the first index finger joint from the knuckle. This style also puts the cue more inline with the forearm bone.

I can see where trying to explain things in writing is difficult. Not everyone sees the same picture when a statement or comment is made. :)

I know this is the Instructors Forum and apologize for my postings. Say the word and I'll move on.

John
 

PGHteacher

John Fischer
Silver Member
I know this is the Instructors Forum and apologize for my postings. Say the word and I'll move on.

John

I think anyone should be able to post anything they want, I am not a certified instructor either; I have been teaching for 20 some years and charge for my lessons the people with papers tell me that's just fine, and that qualifies me.

I think if you are giving advice/corrections to posters with specific questions I think one should disclose that they have no expirience in structured/formal (as opposed to just telling someone a shot, or giving some people "tips") instuction.

The people with papers (and me to) have also said giving advice/corrections is just fine to as long as you say (like you did) "hey I am not an instructor but.....". This is a really cool spot on the forum and the short time I have been on this is the spot where the most useful exchange of info happens, so; feel free to post away here.
 

the kidd

VOTE ONE TIME
Silver Member
Touch of reverse

Right on target. Yes I noticed the same thing about using a touch of reverse but not intellectually as you did I just made a note in my mind that most times when using reverse I made the shot and solidly. I really played for "fun" loved the game. Helped some very broke hustlers!! (before you were born):wink:

There's much more to The Three Part Pocket System than just making the pocket zone bigger. It teaches an accelerating stroke that is extremely accurate and enables you to do things with the cue ball that you COULD NOT do before. It wasn't that you weren't capable of doing it, you just wouldn't know it was an option. Now you can make your stroke a weapon.

That's why you MUST do it for 3 hours straight to allow your perception to change long enough to grasp it. Then, even if you go back to your old style you will play it differently. You will "Real Eyes" that there's another type of shot you can hit and you will recognize the ZONE in the pocket - The Three Part Pocket System I speak of in my Ultimate Pool Secrets.

When I first spoke of the 3 Part Pocket System I advised people to use ouside english and hit it slower just because I didn't want to get into "changing players perceptions", but now I'm sharing the "real deal". This is the system I used to dominate the gambling world for several years. I went 3 straight years and won countless gambling matches and the list of people I played looked like the "who's who" of professional world class players.

They all knew I was doing something addressing the ball that was powerful, but I didn't talk about what it was. Even now, when I share it there's many people that won't try it just out of principle. This is normal and to be expected, I'm only sharing this information to help a few players that REALLY want to explore a new perception in pool that few have experienced. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
Here is a clip of my grip, slightly cocked foreword. I pretty much hold the cue against my index knuckle and resting against the heal pad. I will manipulate the grip a bit depending on the speed needed for a shot. This grip seems to stop unwanted sideways movement of the wrist and keeps the wrist hinge moving back and forth without a break.

https://vimeo.com/52942559
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Doing this, especially in front my eyes gives me an extra sense of connection

Here is a clip of my grip, slightly cocked foreword. I pretty much hold the cue against my index knuckle and resting against the heal pad. I will manipulate the grip a bit depending on the speed needed for a shot. This grip seems to stop unwanted sideways movement of the wrist and keeps the wrist hinge moving back and forth without a break.

https://vimeo.com/52942559

That looks good to me. I would just incorporate cocking your wrist up and down with your hand at your hip. Doing this, especially in front my eyes gives me an extra sense of connection to the "Slot" and adds to my feeling of not being able to move the cue left or right in your stroke.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
There's many ways to describe this 'Touch of Inside' system

There's something else to this that CJ may or may not have mentioned elsewhere (sorry, wish I had the time to read all his posts, but can't). Given a consistent hit and speed, the inside not only translates into the cut angle he describes, the cue ball also comes off the object ball, especially at half ball cuts or ones close to it, picking up no outside spin (an aspect of collision-induced throw that players tend to neglect or think of as "normal"),
Greetings from Switzerland, David.

_________________

Yes, David, I believe I get a truer "cut," and there does seem to be "cleaner/truer" angles all the way around using the "Touch."

There's many ways to describe this 'Touch of Inside' system{as far as why it's' so effective} and it comes down to what your philosophy is concerning the pool game.

If you believe that you can hit the cue ball in the center, cut the object ball where you "aim," and the pocket in the center you are being unrealistic....I'm not saying "you're wrong," I'm simply saying "that's what it looks like when the "Pros" play."

However, theres more, you're seeing the "result," but you can't see "the incentive." The incentive is to utilize all the factors involved to create the highest margin of error to produce the results you see, using a "System" to make the Game as simple as possible. The question is "how do you make a Game simple that has thousands of shots, as well as a multitude of spins, speeds, and deviations to calculate?"

The most important issue of the matter, from my perspective, ( documented to winning thousands of gambling matches and professional matches) is no human being can hit the cue ball, cut the object ball, and contact the center every time.

Therefore a system must be utilized to maximize margin of error (this exists because the pocket is bigger than the ball, if this wasn't true there would be NO margin of error).

The best "System" to do this would have three factors:

1) You would not be required to hit the cue ball straight every time to make all the shots that come up in a game.

2) You would be able to control your speed, spin and where you contact the cue ball more and more as you gain experience by doing it ONE way.

3) The System would have a "built in" trigger that would assure you "align your body to the shot", "hit the cue ball precisely/accurately" AND "accelerate". This is the best way to assure overall consistency.

If you don't hit the cue ball precisely and with a stroke that accelerates the cue you really can't expect to play that well. Certainly not at the level you may be striving for. Either way, to play a game or sport better it usually does take a mental change. The "mental change" in pool is the ability to see how to maximize "margin of error."

I'm suggesting that by giving shots the "Same Common Denominator," you will suddenly have the ability to shoot them the same. There will be exceptions where you still have to use different spins and speeds, however, the important thing is positioning your game so you can hit a "Touch of Inside" if possible.

So in your pre shot routine it changes from you asking "where do I need to play position on my next shot to get the right "angle." - to "where do I need to get position on my next shot{using a Touch of Inside 'TOI'}to create my favorite angle?

This calculation is done quickly and easily once you become familiar with the different type shots now available to you.

Unless you've used TOI before there's no way to know the style and type of shots that are possible. That's why I've always said you need to practice for 3 hours using TOI every timeto gain this essential experience. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 

row21097

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Kunckleball, hook, kill

This is only my second post ever but: is this not simply a question of:
No English: knuckleball
Hook: running English
Slice : kill English

What would you rather do? Given the unknowns of the knuckleball, and then forced to err with either running or kill, choose kill. Kill looks good .

Am I wrong?
b
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think using the "kill shot" is a weapon for sure

This is only my second post ever but: is this not simply a question of:
No English: knuckleball
Hook: running English
Slice : kill English

What would you rather do? Given the unknowns of the knuckleball, and then forced to err with either running or kill, choose kill. Kill looks good .

Am I wrong?
b

I think using the "kill shot" is a weapon for sure. You can still hit the cue ball crisply and maintain control on shots that would have to be slow rolled. I'm not a fan of "slow rolling" balls as much as hitting everything with a similiar stroke.

Consistency comes from doing the same thing over and over in a system and/or routine. Hitting the same angle, speed, spin, etc. incourages a similiar approach on shots and gives you a chance to "taylor" your favorite type stroke.
 
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