Liar, Liar case on fire...

[classiccues]

lol There is a great difference between doing a test on a car manufactured by a company you don't care for, and doing a review of something that you would never buy because of its country of origin. And as far as your comments go on that case, I see nothing mentioned regarding the country of origin, only that you and John have "had your differences." It's also the ONLY post from that thread that is unable to be read on this site any longer. Coincidence?

Chris

Chris,

To me, there isn't a difference. The fact is is someone sent me a cue from China and asked me to review it on craftsmanship alone, I could do it. In theory if I said it was the best cue ever, and a person said well I am not buying it. Thats his choice. The decision of preference on what to buy is strictly up to the idividual. I don't like country music so I don't own any Garth Brooks.

No coincidence, not based on country of origin anyways.

JV

 

[Devilish48]

There appears to be a glitch and the thread is no longer there after four years.

We copied the testimonial for use elsewhere so here it is for reference.

Joe Van Buren

GTF Cases... a review - 12-28-2007, 02:08 PM

Well well well, what do I have here....

A brandy new GTF case for review....

Let me start off by saying, anyone who knows RSB knows that John Barton and I have had our differences. So by no means am I schilling for his case design. In fact I probably hoped I could find a lot wrong so I could tell him he can't even copy worth damn.. but that is not the case, no pun intended.

I have a smooth leather 1 x 2 GTF case. So let me begin my review...

Presentation is very nice.. the bag it came in is very nice. A product tag, a key ring with key and swatch of leather. I have to say, this part is really well done. Grade A

Latch: Now everyone knows any latch John picks out is suspect. But this is a nice brushed brass tone latch that does the job. The latch also has definition, little extra accent on the ends. The key works, one revolution clockwise to lock, counter to unlock. So far so good after 12 times. The latch on mine is attached via screws so if I needed to I could remove the latch with minimal effort. I could say that they should be riveted. But lets face reality, on all these style of cases you can pry the latch off with no problem. Grade: A, if it starts failing D.

Leatherwork: The seam is very good, the ends are very good. In fact the ends are finished nicer than the Kelli I have and the Fellini. I will use it and see how it all stays together, but right now its very, very clean. Grade A

Tube work: Cap: It looks like its a three piece cap. The extruded tube, and a top insert, and a cap. The cap is probably molded and has a rim that allows it to sit flush in the top of the tube. *guessing*This is probably a better design than a glued in cap. Plus I would think it would double as the bottom assembly. Case is longer than my Fellini.

Liner: The plush fabric is better than the thinner fabric. BUT I think its too tight. I know JB likes to turn his cases over and not have his cue hit the floor. However, I store my cues in these tube cases the following way: Shafts, tip up, butt screw down. Why? Less chalk in the tubes. It's a squeeze getting my cue in and I don't know if anything bad is happening while I do this. The butt swells the end of the case and the top needed to be finagled on. I will say I believe an older cue with a big butt is not going to fit into this case. Grade: B

What I would change. Move away from the Fellini style label. Stamp the ends, bottom of the case, get rid of the white label, the Fellini tag is iconic.

Overall this case is a low A - strong B.

All in all, the case seems to do what it is supposed to. I will use it for a few weeks then update my report. I cannot fathom any issues with such a simplistic case design. I look forward to seeing the 2 x 4 at some point.

JV

www.classiccues.com

Again.. no mention of the country of origin. Just his "differences" with you. Where, oh where might the China reference be?

 

[classiccues]

And when did you become a professional reviewer? What else have you reviewed? Can we see some links to those products?

Well for whatever reason you did it we are glad you did lay aside your morals and your bias and give the product a review based on the merits. I feel certain that your well done review helped us to sell more GTF cases and continues to help us. In fact I will see to it that your expert opinion is reposted in as many places as possible so that as many people as possible can benefit from your professional expertise.

I am sure that when and if you do a review of Thomas cases you will inform the readers that you are a Thomas dealer as that is the ethical thing to do.

Yeah about as ethical as hiding the origin of the cases as well as the prinicpal behind it.

JV

 

[Devilish48]

Chris,

To me, there isn't a difference. The fact is is someone sent me a cue from China and asked me to review it on craftsmanship alone, I could do it. In theory if I said it was the best cue ever, and a person said well I am not buying it. Thats his choice. The decision of preference on what to buy is strictly up to the idividual. I don't like country music so I don't own any Garth Brooks.

No coincidence, not based on country of origin anyways.

JV

Again, why review it at all? If someone sent me something that I knew I would never buy, and I would "hope" that no one else would ever buy, what purpose could I have in reviewing it.. especially if I gave it a good review?

Chris

 

[classiccues]

Again.. no mention of the country of origin. Just his "differences" with you. Where, oh where might the China reference be?

Unfortuately you cannot see the whole thread. As with all the GTF case threads that became about origin, it was in there. At the time everyone knew from the other threads where the cases were from and understood is was part of our differences, as well documented in NPR.

JV

 

[Devilish48]

Unfortuately you cannot see the whole thread. As with all the GTF case threads that became about origin, it was in there. At the time everyone knew from the other threads where the cases were from and understood is was part of our differences, as well documented in NPR.

JV

As I am not sure what constitutes badgering or abusing another member, and I have no desire to be banned for such behavior, I will leave it where it is and let those who have read the entire thread make their own conclusions.

Chris

 

[classiccues]

Again, why review it at all? If someone sent me something that I knew I would never buy, and I would "hope" that no one else would ever buy, what purpose could I have in reviewing it.. especially if I gave it a good review?

Chris

Why? Because I can.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

Yeah about as ethical as hiding the origin of the cases as well as the prinicpal behind it.

JV

How do you figure that the origin was hidden? I can go back to find the very first mention of GTF by me ever and I am 100% certain that it predates your review. In fact in your review you mention me and you know full well that I made the case in China.

So the origin of the cases was never hidden.

As to who the principal investor was I had no idea back then that you didn't like Roy. I was asked not to mention him and I did not. BUT your friend Ron Thomas knew that Roy was doing the GTF cases.

Other people in the business knew it. Many cases were sent out to cue makers and collectors before GTF was even mentioned on the forum. Only you didn't know it but that should not have been a problem for you to lay your personal bias aside and give a professional review. Which you did and for which I am thankful.

 

[asiasdad]

Protection matters and here we see a great example of why.

That could also be said of the person making the above quote

 

[classiccues]

So punishing the employees is your idea of doing something for them? I mean you can shop were you want to but Wal-Mart provides employment to not only hundreds of thousands of people who work directly for them but also for millions of people who supply Wal-Mart in every capacity..

Yes they do, and they have been punished for multiple employee issues.

Yours is misguided and not based on economics. Where you spend your money has no bearing at all on the economy.

LOL misguided, patriotic, call it what you want. You spend your money your way, I'll spoend mine my way. In the end, we'll both be happy.

It appears that money trumps morals for you. When it comes to selling cues you adopt a don't ask/don't tell policy. .

Really, you want to go there with me? Morals, you wouldn't know morals if it hit you square upside the head.

He buys what he wants regardless of where it's made. He owns products from around the world including from China. And not only billiard gear, he wears a piece of jade around his neck that I think he said is worth about $50,000. No one here is saying that American cue makers are not the pinnacle of cue making. They are. But that's not what this is about.

It's about you being willing to sell to foreigners but wanting to shut all foreigners out of selling to the USA.

No, its about a case fire. And some sort of rigged test you want to run.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

Yes they do, and they have been punished for multiple employee issues.

And you want to punish the employees even more?

LOL misguided, patriotic, call it what you want. You spend your money your way, I'll spoend mine my way. In the end, we'll both be happy.

Well I will be happy. I am not so sure about you. I hope you'll be happy someday. Maybe that day will come when you realize that all life has value and the way to preserve it is to provide opportunity. You seem to thing that withholding trade is somehow helpful to poor people in other countries. It's not, it's harmful to them and subjects them to abject poverty and high mortality. But as long as you're happy then it's all good.

Really, you want to go there with me? Morals, you wouldn't know morals if it hit you square upside the head.

I don't want to go anywhere with you Joe. You said you would gladly kill ten million Chinese people in an instant if you could have 100% employment in the USA. I am sorry but in my eyes you are morally bankrupt based on that statement alone.

No, its about a case fire. And some sort of rigged test you want to run.

JV

Well it WAS about cue protection and whether our cases could hold up to a fire or not but since Steve had to play the Buy American card now it's about globalization, and value, and ethics, and morals....

Yes the test will be rigged. I plan to use some Chinese knockoff fire that doesn't really burn anything.

 

[classiccues]

How do you figure that the origin was hidden? I can go back to find the very first mention of GTF by me ever and I am 100% certain that it predates your review. In fact in your review you mention me and you know full well that I made the case in China.

So the origin of the cases was never hidden.

As to who the principal investor was I had no idea back then that you didn't like Roy. I was asked not to mention him and I did not. BUT your friend Ron Thomas knew that Roy was doing the GTF cases.

Other people in the business knew it. Many cases were sent out to cue makers and collectors before GTF was even mentioned on the forum. Only you didn't know it but that should not have been a problem for you to lay your personal bias aside and give a professional review. Which you did and for which I am thankful.

The headquartered in Chicago was where the hiding came from. There were ten threads on it and the lack of a made in China label.

So you knew Roy was the guy, YOU didn't mention him and in fact YOU used Bob as the front. So you knew all this was happening and didn't say anything. OK.. now that that is clarified, I think we all know where YOUR morals lie. Right behind the dollar sign. So we now know that Roy was kept out by YOU, why? So Bob could get more sold, that is the ONLY reason it could be. Which means the lie was driven by money, and YOU hid it because it would adversely affect your bottom line. Why would you hide the involvement of your friend and such an upstanding individual?

JV

 

[classiccues]

And you want to punish the employees even more?

They can quit. There are other jobs, oh wait there aren't because of the many people that feel using lower cost labor so they can make more for themselves is good. You know, like you.

Well I will be happy. I am not so sure about you. I hope you'll be happy someday. Maybe that day will come when you realize that all life has value and the way to preserve it is to provide opportunity. You seem to thing that withholding trade is somehow helpful to poor people in other countries. It's not, it's harmful to them and subjects them to abject poverty and high mortality. But as long as you're happy then it's all good.

The other countries can develop whatever they want as long as it doesn't threaten anyone here. Is that wishful thinking? Of course.

I don't want to go anywhere with you Joe. You said you would gladly kill ten million Chinese people in an instant if you could have 100% employment in the USA. I am sorry but in my eyes you are morally bankrupt based on that statement alone.

Dude, I'd kill just an many union reps, or corporate scumbags if it meant keeping jobs in the US. Well of course you do, as I think you're morally bankrupt for setting up shop to make 40 dollar cases.

Well it WAS about cue protection and whether our cases could hold up to a fire or not but since Steve had to play the Buy American card now it's about globalization, and value, and ethics, and morals....

Yes the test will be rigged. I plan to use some Chinese knockoff fire that doesn't really burn anything.

I really wish Steve would talk about why he switched. But Steve is nice like that, if it was me, it would be on every forum.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

The headquartered in Chicago was where the hiding came from. There were ten threads on it and the lack of a made in China label.

So you knew Roy was the guy, YOU didn't mention him and in fact YOU used Bob as the front.

I didn't use anyone as a front. I am the person who was contracted to make the cases. I did not hide that fact. I am not required to reveal who my customers are. I sent the cases to Roy and he sent them out to whomever he wanted to based on his agreements with them.

The origin of the cases was KNOWN to you BEFORE the case ever got into your hands. The label read Chicago because that is where the headquarters was going to be.

So you knew all this was happening and didn't say anything.

All what was happening? That you were not given a full list of who was involved in GTF cases? You make it sound like Watergate. YOu also didn't make it known that if Roy had anything to do with it that you wouldn't do a review.

Let's be clear about something. Your opinion of the cases was not needed at all. I think that perhaps you might have been made to feel more important than you actually are.

I was asked if I thought it would be worth it to send you a case for review and my reply was that you are active on AZB and that IF you would review the case on it's merits then we had a good chance to end up with a decent review but that if you gave it a bad review then we could deal with it and address the points, valid or not.

But at the end of the day by the time you got a case we were already into the project with nearly a thousand cases. We already had positive feedback from people who were actually around when Fellini was making cases, Jay Helfert, Jerry Forsyth, Bill Schick and several others. So your opinion wasn't needed at all.

But I figured that your review would, ironically, be a trial by fire of sorts and so I recommended that they take the shot. I have always been confident in my product and willing to put it in the fire.

OK.. now that that is clarified, I think we all know where YOUR morals lie. Right behind the dollar sign. So we now know that Roy was kept out by YOU, why?

Roy was not mentioned because he asked not to be mentioned. I don't know how you handle your business but when a client of mine requests confidentiality then that is what they get.

But I certainly didn't hide where the cases were made or who was making them. I am sorry Joe but any junior detective could have put 2+2 together and seen that the sudden appearance of dozens of GTF cases on Roy's website coupled with the fact that he was already into JB Cases probably meant that he was involved. Again, you didn't ask and we didn't tell. Had we known it mattered to you then we certainly would not have wished to cause you anguish and grief and to question your professionalism.

So Bob could get more sold, that is the ONLY reason it could be. Which means the lie was driven by money, and YOU hid it because it would adversely affect your bottom line.

How would it affect my bottom line? We were already paid for 1000 cases. I didn't stand to make one penny more on the cases than I had already made. There was no lie Joe. You buy products all the time with zero clue who the investors are. No one was obligated to reveal this to you or anyone else and you didn't ask either.

Why would you hide the involvement of your friend and such an upstanding individual?

JV

Once again (sigh) I was asked to keep Roy's name out of it. I honor my customer's requests. This is why I can make things for many people without you knowing about it. I often make cases and you don't know who bought them. My friend Roy Malott is an amazing person and I would have gladly put his name in lights highlighting his wherewithal as a true stocking dealer. But I was asked not to and as I said the way I do business I keep my customer's confidentiality when asked to do so. In fact they don't have to ask because I know when my OEM clients don't want their supplier revealed.

 

[JB Cases]

They can quit. There are other jobs, oh wait there aren't because of the many people that feel using lower cost labor so they can make more for themselves is good. You know, like you.

Easy for you to say. You have no problem dictating how other people should get by as long as they do it your way. This is a nation of 300 million people Joe. That type of population does not get what it needs from mom & pop corner stores.

It's useless to give you a lesson in the history retailing. Likewise a lesson in basic economics is also wasted on you. Your lack of understanding of market dynamics and willingness to sacrifice others to satisfy your strange morality is too big a hurdle to overcome wth education.

The other countries can develop whatever they want as long as it doesn't threaten anyone here. Is that wishful thinking? Of course.

So essentially you claim on one hand to care about the welfare of the people in those countries when you argue that people should boycott goods on human rights grounds but on the other hand you say that they should be left completely alone with no trade to fend for themselves? That's wishful thinking and seems as if you are actually not very clear what you really believe in.

Dude, I'd kill just an many union reps, or corporate scumbags if it meant keeping jobs in the US. Well of course you do, as I think you're morally bankrupt for setting up shop to make 40 dollar cases.

So you are homicidal? You kill to provide employment? You can do that now if you're serious. Anyway this is more wishful thinking that has zero basis in economic reality. Jobs are fluid and they flow to where it makes the most sense for the company to get the work done profitably. When labor becomes too expensive in China then the work will flow elsewhere until there is relative equilibrium around the world. At one time America was the low wage producer and England was all pissy at the fact that Americans would do the work for less than than the British. History is also lost on you I think unfortunately.

I really wish Steve would talk about why he switched. But Steve is nice like that, if it was me, it would be on every forum.

I wish he would also. He has been asked. If there is some problem with the product then we could have dealt with it. If there is some personality problem then that's another matter. All we can do is address the comments made and deal with them as they come.

You apparently know and have indicated that you don't respect confidentiality so go ahead and tell us what you know. We can then discuss that for a while.

 

[classiccues]

I didn't use anyone as a front. I am the person who was contracted to make the cases. I did not hide that fact. I am not required to reveal who my customers are. I sent the cases to Roy and he sent them out to whomever he wanted to based on his agreements with them.

The origin of the cases was KNOWN to you BEFORE the case ever got into your hands. The label read Chicago because that is where the headquarters was going to be.

All what was happening? That you were not given a full list of who was involved in GTF cases? You make it sound like Watergate. YOu also didn't make it known that if Roy had anything to do with it that you wouldn't do a review.

Well I didn't think you were hiding anything, nor did I have any reason to think that you would hide the "main" guy. Why would I think that? I mean in a thread about them YOU only named him as a "dealer". So I guess then, you were lying. Its all about being upfront, John, and its something you know NOTHING about.

Let's be clear about something. Your opinion of the cases was not needed at all. I think that perhaps you might have been made to feel more important than you actually are.

I was asked if I thought it would be worth it to send you a case for review and my reply was that you are active on AZB and that IF you would review the case on it's merits then we had a good chance to end up with a decent review but that if you gave it a bad review then we could deal with it and address the points, valid or not.

But at the end of the day by the time you got a case we were already into the project with nearly a thousand cases. We already had positive feedback from people who were actually around when Fellini was making cases, Jay Helfert, Jerry Forsyth, Bill Schick and several others. So your opinion wasn't needed at all. .

Funny, I don't see a review from them posted? Oh I must have missed it. But the fact is you needed the review, because of the views it would get on line.

Roy was not mentioned because he asked not to be mentioned. I don't know how you handle your business but when a client of mine requests confidentiality then that is what they get.

But I certainly didn't hide where the cases were made or who was making them. I am sorry Joe but any junior detective could have put 2+2 together and seen that the sudden appearance of dozens of GTF cases on Roy's website coupled with the fact that he was already into JB Cases probably meant that he was involved. Again, you didn't ask and we didn't tell. Had we known it mattered to you then we certainly would not have wished to cause you anguish and grief and to question your professionalism..

So it is ok to lie, then, if there is money to be made. I just want to make sure you and I are on the same page for future clarification. What 2+2, you said, he was just a dealer in the GTF thread, so why would I question that?

How would it affect my bottom line? We were already paid for 1000 cases. I didn't stand to make one penny more on the cases than I had already made. There was no lie Joe. You buy products all the time with zero clue who the investors are. No one was obligated to reveal this to you or anyone else and you didn't ask either...

Why would I ask John? We had verbal conformation from you that he was not involved other than being a dealer. I buy products all the time not knowing, you're right. I don't agree to review them.

Once again (sigh) I was asked to keep Roy's name out of it. I honor my customer's requests. This is why I can make things for many people without you knowing about it. I often make cases and you don't know who bought them. My friend Roy Malott is an amazing person and I would have gladly put his name in lights highlighting his wherewithal as a true stocking dealer. But I was asked not to and as I said the way I do business I keep my customer's confidentiality when asked to do so. In fact they don't have to ask because I know when my OEM clients don't want their supplier revealed.

We all know why, no reason to elaborate.

JV

 

[classiccues]

Easy for you to say. You have no problem dictating how other people should get by as long as they do it your way. This is a nation of 300 million people Joe. That type of population does not get what it needs from mom & pop corner stores.

It's useless to give you a lesson in the history retailing. Likewise a lesson in basic economics is also wasted on you. Your lack of understanding of market dynamics and willingness to sacrifice others to satisfy your strange morality is too big a hurdle to overcome wth education..

Just because I do not agree with the principle of economics doesn't mean I do not know them. I disagree with them, period. We all know about retailing, John, just like giving you a lesson about honor would be lost, but thats ok.

So essentially you claim on one hand to care about the welfare of the people in those countries when you argue that people should boycott goods on human rights grounds but on the other hand you say that they should be left completely alone with no trade to fend for themselves? That's wishful thinking and seems as if you are actually not very clear what you really believe in...

They can trade amongst each other, they can import / export. No one is saying shut them down, IF they meet = payscales to the US. I am all for them working. The fact is its not a global economy if the field is not level. Works for you because you're one of the guys making money over there.

So you are homicidal? You kill to provide employment? You can do that now if you're serious. Anyway this is more wishful thinking that has zero basis in economic reality. Jobs are fluid and they flow to where it makes the most sense for the company to get the work done profitably. When labor becomes too expensive in China then the work will flow elsewhere until there is relative equilibrium around the world. At one time America was the low wage producer and England was all pissy at the fact that Americans would do the work for less than than the British. History is also lost on you I think unfortunately....

You don't have to like it. As I said I have a very good economic understanding but I do not agree with whats happening. Maybe if I was one of these guys making money off the sweat of the underpaid and exploited I would agree with you.

I wish he would also. He has been asked. If there is some problem with the product then we could have dealt with it. If there is some personality problem then that's another matter. All we can do is address the comments made and deal with them as they come.

You apparently know and have indicated that you don't respect confidentiality so go ahead and tell us what you know. We can then discuss that for a while.

I don't speak for Steve, its up to him. I respect confidentiality when its required.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

Well I didn't think you were hiding anything, nor did I have any reason to think that you would hide the "main" guy. Why would I think that? I mean in a thread about them YOU only named him as a "dealer". So I guess then, you were lying. Its all about being upfront, John, and its something you know NOTHING about.

He was a dealer. At that time GTF and IndyQ were to be separate and IndyQ was to be a dealer of the cases.

I told the truth. There was zero need to reveal that Roy was an investor in the cases.

I was 100% upfront about where the cases were from and my thoughts on them.

Funny, I don't see a review from them posted? Oh I must have missed it. But the fact is you needed the review, because of the views it would get on line.

No we didn't need your review. The vast majority of GTF cases have been sold outside of AZB. But if it makes you feel better we are grateful that you did it and we do feel that it was helpful. Which is why we will post it on every forum and place we can to insure that your hard work and professional expertise are read by thousands more and hopefully millions.

So it is ok to lie, then, if there is money to be made. I just want to make sure you and I are on the same page for future clarification. What 2+2, you said, he was just a dealer in the GTF thread, so why would I question that?

Ok, well my thought here is that if you are so upset about Roy then why would you review something that he is a dealer, and the only dealer at that point, of?

Using your assertion that we needed your review for the views so that we could sell more cases doesn't it make sense to you that selling more cases would directly benefit someone you claim to hate? I mean to me based on your claimed moral and ethical stance I would have thought that ANY involvement of Roy and GTF would have kept you away. At the very least someone who hates another person as much as you claim to hate Roy would have perhaps thought to ask about how involved Roy was seeing as how there was a long thread about him and GTF BEFORE you were even contacted about doing a review.

Why would I ask John? We had verbal conformation from you that he was not involved other than being a dealer. I buy products all the time not knowing, you're right. I don't agree to review them.

You didn't have to ask. All I said is that you didn't. I didn't say that Roy was not involved other than being a dealer. You had no such confirmation. In fact NONE of the three investors in GTF were revealed by me. Nor did anyone ask me.

We all know why, no reason to elaborate.

JV

No, again although you seem to have no problem violating confidentiality, I do not reveal my clients unless I know it's ok.

I can repeat this as often as needed Joe.

 

[JB Cases]

Just because I do not agree with the principle of economics doesn't mean I do not know them. I disagree with them, period. We all know about retailing, John, just like giving you a lesson about honor would be lost, but thats ok.

Ok well far be it for me to interrupt your fantasy of how the world should work according to Joe.

As far as honor goes, I don't see much honor in advocating the murder of some people in order to provide jobs for others. But it's clear that you and I don't share the same definition of honor. So you're right, a lesson on honor from you is lost on me.

They can trade amongst each other, they can import / export. No one is saying shut them down, IF they meet = payscales to the US. I am all for them working. The fact is its not a global economy if the field is not level. Works for you because you're one of the guys making money over there.

The field is only level for you if it means the rest of the world is just like America? That's a bit arrogant I think. Well given that you ignore economics in about the same way that other people deny climate change it's not surprising that you have little understanding of history and culture that lead to the market being what it is.

You don't have to like it. As I said I have a very good economic understanding but I do not agree with whats happening. Maybe if I was one of these guys making money off the sweat of the underpaid and exploited I would agree with you.

No, you don't have a good or even basic understanding of the economics involved.

I don't speak for Steve, its up to him. I respect confidentiality when its required.

JV

When it's required? As in when you deem it to be. That's very convenient Joe. Basically gives you the option of which confidences to keep and which to break. Is that also part of the honor you wish to teach me?

 

[classiccues]

.

We'll have to agree to disagree because this circular arguement is tiresome. Had I known about Roy, there would have been no review.

I have no confidentiality agreements with anyone in this industry. If I did, they would be well protected.

JV