Loose or Tight Grip

[ENGLISH!]

I've never heard of anyone advising a tight grip. All terms are relative, but have you ever seen a single good player using a tight grip in your life?

Mr. Banks,

I would agree with you. However CJ Wiley's grip in not loose. As you say all terms of this nature are relative. CJ uses an athletic grip very similiar to a tennis grip that I believe he refers to as firm or strong. He has said that he does not want anything loose.

I spent 3 hours last week giving his touch of inside technique a good try & I found myself straying from my normally 2 point axle type 'V' grip & loose wrist to a more firm grip, wrist, & compact stroke.

This change happened with no fore thought in my mind. I just started to gravitate toward them as I focussed on deflecting the cue ball.

I don't exactly know just what that means, but CJ is a World Champion.

Regards,

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I can tell you that while "it makes sense" to you that a cue's resonance would travel up and down the cue, in real practice, it doesn't. It stops dead right at the joint, *unless* the joint is made from the same material -- wood -- as the cue itself is made from. ...

Are you referring to the side-to-side resonance (wiggle) that you see when you strike the cue on the side or the along-the-length resonance that is somewhere around 1000 Hz?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I've never heard of anyone advising a tight grip. All terms are relative, but have you ever seen a single good player using a tight grip in your life?

I've heard someone advise a tight grip to kill the cue ball. I think such advice is mistaken, but such ideas do exist.

 

[sfleinen]

Are you referring to the side-to-side resonance (wiggle) that you see when you strike the cue on the side or the along-the-length resonance that is somewhere around 1000 Hz?

Good question for clarity, Bob! I'm referring to the "along the length" resonance with a dead-center hit -- the one that would give a "ping" or "ponk" sound in the Hz range you're referring to.

Obviously, in the other type, the "wiggle" (or "tuning fork vibrations") you get when slapping the cue on its side is less a function of the cue's joint as it is more of the entire cue itself.

-Sean

 

[The Renfro]

I see Bob arrived on schedule :thumbup:

I won't go stealing his lines... We had a similar convo at the Open =)

 

[TRWpool]

Very interesting Sean,
Thank you for the clarification. I was informed of this cymbal idea from a few cue makers out of the Baltimore MD area. I don't wish to put words in the mouth of these people so I won't offer their names but they were all greatly interested in developing a two piece cue which played with the strength of a one piece cue. Maybe they were mistaken in their beliefs. Because a house cue has no joint to deal with, there is no loss of energy throughout the hit. That engery could travel from tip to butt and back again. They all stated the problem with the jointed cue was in the loss of that energy at the joint during the hit.

I'm I right in thinking you are saying that there are no two piece cues which allow even a portion of the energy to run through the joint to the butt of the cue unless the material used to make the joint is the same as the cue itself? If that is the case then I see little difference in gripping the cue with a death grip verses a light grip. At least as far as the energy a player can deliver is concerned.

I'm not arguing the point, just trying to understand what you are saying. Please respond, I find this very interesting.

Tom

 

[bbb]

i am not an instructor but the way i understand it is
when you have a death grip especially
if you get tighter at contact
the cue tip tends to rise which means you dont hit the cue as low as intended
therefore less draw
the cue ball only knows where it is hit, how fast/hard,and angle of approach of the cuestick
if you can reliably reproduce the spot you hit ,speed,and angle of cuestick
it wouldnt matter your grip pressure
that being said it seem over time conventional wisdom says its easier to be repeatable with a loose grip
as i said
im not an instructor so i welcome
your comments
thanks

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Interesting comments, Sean. If you've tried strong draw with one piece house cues lately, you'll get what he is saying still more.

On a scale of 1 to 10, if my regular stroke grip is a gentle #1 and I have to draw off an object ball that is far away, I might go up to 1.5 or 2 depending on the shot.

It's been a long while since I've had a cue ball frozen to the cushion then drew off a ball in the far corner pocket all the way back to the rail where I started but even then a death grip is not needed IMHO.

 

[sfleinen]

Interesting comments, Sean. If you've tried strong draw with one piece house cues lately, you'll get what he is saying still more.

On a scale of 1 to 10, if my regular stroke grip is a gentle #1 and I have to draw off an object ball that is far away, I might go up to 1.5 or 2 depending on the shot.

It's been a long while since I've had a cue ball frozen to the cushion then drew off a ball in the far corner pocket all the way back to the rail where I started but even then a death grip is not needed IMHO.

Not sure what you're getting at, Matt. I've certainly played with one-piece house cues recently (just about anytime I step into a bar, if there's a barbox there), and one-piece cues actually substantiate what I'm saying -- that the resonance is felt through the entire cue, right to the grip hand.

However, if the point the OP is trying to get across is that a death-grip "silences" or deadens that resonance, that's a different story. I don't play with a death-grip -- quite the opposite, actually. While the fingers in my hand may be locked in a cage around the cue, there is daylight all around the circumference of the cue, except at the point where the weight of the cue rests in the cradle. I'm pretty sure I made that clear in the previous post, no? If not, I apologize if there was any confusion.

-Sean

 

[Bob Jewett]

Good question for clarity, Bob! I'm referring to the "along the length" resonance with a dead-center hit -- the one that would give a "ping" or "ponk" sound in the Hz range you're referring to. ..

In that case, I believe your comment about the longitudinal vibration stopping at the joint is not correct. Why do you believe it is true? If it is true, what effect do you think it has on the shot?

 

[FranCrimi]

There's a release and grab techinique that many top players use on power shots, such as the break shot and power draw shots. That often gets mistaken as a loose grip but it's not a loose grip when the tip contacts the cue ball.

 

[sfleinen]

Very interesting Sean,
Thank you for the clarification. I was informed of this cymbal idea from a few cue makers out of the Baltimore MD area. I don't wish to put words in the mouth of these people so I won't offer their names but they were all greatly interested in developing a two piece cue which played with the strength of a one piece cue. Maybe they were mistaken in their beliefs. Because a house cue has no joint to deal with, there is no loss of energy throughout the hit. That engery could travel from tip to butt and back again. They all stated the problem with the jointed cue was in the loss of that energy at the joint during the hit.

I'm I right in thinking you are saying that there are no two piece cues which allow even a portion of the energy to run through the joint to the butt of the cue unless the material used to make the joint is the same as the cue itself? If that is the case then I see little difference in gripping the cue with a death grip verses a light grip. At least as far as the energy a player can deliver is concerned.

I'm not arguing the point, just trying to understand what you are saying. Please respond, I find this very interesting.

Tom

Tom:

I don't play with a "death-grip" at all, so I can't comment on the cymbal idea. But it does make sense -- a firm/tight grip seems like it can act as a vibration dampener.

I do know that in splitting wood with a sledge hammer and wedges, if you just let the weight of the sledge hit the wedge, and "allow" the tool to do what it wants -- i.e. allow it to bounce upwards after contact -- that you won't get as much penetration with the wedge as when you tighten your grip on the sledge's handle a split second prior to contact. In this case, the "deader" the hit you apply to the wedge, the greater the impact and thus the greater the energy transfer to the wedge, driving it much deeper in the wood. Although not used for splitting wood, there's even very heavy mallets sold that are essentially hollow heads, filled with lead shot (but not completely filled -- allowing room for the lead shot to shift around) that when you swing them, the lead shot transfers from the back of the mallet's head to the striking face, deadening the hit. Again, these are not used for splitting wood, obviously, but their existence does speak to the functionality and usefulness of a deadened hit. The difference here is that the object being struck is much heavier than the striking implement (e.g. a heavy log plus a wedge embedded into it is much heavier than the sledge or mallet striking it).

Though in pool, the question is, why would you want a deadened hit? The cue ball is much lighter than the striking implement (i.e. the cue), so the cue ball always loses that battle. It's not like that log + wedge that looks at you like you're a weakling if you bounce a sledge off of it (i.e. trying to let the tool do the work, vs. putting some muscle into it with a deadened hit -- gripping like you mean it at a split-second before impact). It's a very different scenario.

Thoughts?
-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

In that case, I believe your comment about the longitudinal vibration stopping at the joint is not correct. Why do you believe it is true? If it is true, what effect do you think it has on the shot?

Bob:

Ah, I see where my point is getting lost. No, it would not have any effect on the shot that I'm aware of. What I was trying to say, was the FEEL (in your grip hand) would be lost or minimized -- that big block of stainless steel would minimize any of the hit's vibration or resonance from reaching your hand.

This is true in musical instruments -- where, if you want to deaden the resonance in any part of the instrument (or if you want to prevent that resonance from traveling past that point), you install a denser material right at that point.

Again, the joint has no effect on the hit of the cue ball near as I can tell. But it would have to have an effect on what you feel in your grip hand at the moment of impact.

Do you disagree?

-Sean

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Do you disagree?

...

Yes. I suspect that the joint has negligible effect on the propagation of longitudinal waves. It might slightly change the frequency.

 

[sfleinen]

Yes. I suspect that the joint has negligible effect on the propagation of longitudinal waves. It might slightly change the frequency.

That's cool, Bob. Ok then, convince me. (A friendly challenge, of course.) Is there a paper or study somewhere that actually SHOWS (with findings from sensors or instruments attached to a cue or other striking implement) that a joint -- or section of denser/dissimilar material in the middle of the implement -- has negligible effect on the propagation of longitudinal waves?

Again, I personally don't know of such a study, and I'm open to be convinced otherwise. But my musical instrument-making theory is loudly ringing an alarm that this is untrue.

Thoughts?
-Sean

 

[Bob Jewett]

That's cool, Bob. Ok then, convince me. (A friendly challenge, of course.) Is there a paper or study somewhere that actually SHOWS (with findings from sensors or instruments attached to a cue or other striking implement) that a joint -- or section of denser/dissimilar material in the middle of the implement -- has negligible effect on the propagation of longitudinal waves?

Again, I personally don't know of such a study, and I'm open to be convinced otherwise. But my musical instrument-making theory is loudly ringing an alarm that this is untrue.

Thoughts?
-Sean

I have a simple finite element analysis program that simulates longitudinal vibration. It wouldn't be too hard to put a metal section into the middle.

On a related point, there are some high-speed videos from a Russian cue maker around that actually show the longitudinal vibrations after a hit. They are at the limit of the resolution of the video, but are clearly present.

 

[TRWpool]

Fran,
Are you talking about a slip stroke?

 

[The Renfro]

Fran,
Are you talking about a slip stroke?

I am definitely not Fran,

But she would be referring to "spearing" or a "reverse slip stroke".. I think it has even been dubbed the "stroke slip" =)

And no I am not kidding or making fun...

Chris

 

[FranCrimi]

I am definitely not Fran,

But she would be referring to "spearing" or a "reverse slip stroke".. I think it has even been dubbed the "stroke slip" =)

And no I am not kidding or making fun...

Chris

Actually, I don't think it's even that type of stroke, Chris. The cue doesn't really slip from the player's hand, it just starts out as a loose grip and then there's a quick grab just at impact. It's pretty close to a wrist flick, and could arguably be considered one, but not as pronounced as what we usually attribute to wrist movement. Anyway, my point is that it gives the appearance of a loose grip, and it is, up until impact with the cb.

 

[The Renfro]

Actually, I don't think it's even that type of stroke, Chris. The cue doesn't really slip from the player's hand, it just starts out as a loose grip and then there's a quick grab just at impact. It's pretty close to a wrist flick, and could arguably be considered one, but not as pronounced as what we usually attribute to wrist movement. Anyway, my point is that it gives the appearance of a loose grip, and it is, up until impact with the cb.

Gotcha Fran... I was thinking of a different stroke for sure..

But I agree that if you want to use a lot of wrist you have to make room to be able to come thru aggressively.. If you start out tight on the grip, in the stroke you are talking about, you have restricted much of the wrists ability to add power as the range of motion is usually constricted.....

Chris :thumbup: