Every close up of the pros, when they make contact with the cue ball, it looks like they are striking it in the center, even if I know for a fact they are playing a certain type of spin. Could they be just off center adding right or left spin by pinning the ball as C. J. Wiley commented on in a past post. If you know and its a secret, please pm me, my lips are sealed. .
Pros and Centerball
- Thread starter irock
- Start date
Well I always figured Pro's used alot of center ball hits because they rarely get out of line. No need to juice the cue ball if you're going in the natural direction right? Well, I mean Efren always is in line but you can see he uses alot of english anyways.......
I have been experimenting with CJ's TOI & on occasion have gotten quite a bit of spin by mistake when I have moved a bit more than a 'touch' to the inside to make sure I get the deflection/squirt. That's been my problem, inconsistancy because I have not yet come to trust that I will get enough deflection/squirt with such a small amount of tip offset.
So, I would say it is very possible to get a great deal of spin from not very far off center when hitting with a 'firm' grip & CJ's different more firm wrist action.
Best Regards,
So, I would say it is very possible to get a great deal of spin from not very far off center when hitting with a 'firm' grip & CJ's different more firm wrist action.
Best Regards,
I don't understand how to apply "just a touch of inside" either. I mean how do you strike the cue ball so close to center that you put 0 spin on the ball yet still induce deflection?
I've used it with very very good success & the cue ball does seem to just float. If the CB squirts it does have spin but the shot is hit firm enough that swerve does not happen & the inside spin off sets or overcomes any collision induced pick up of outside spin. I know that it works as CJ says. I just have not been able to be consistently successful with it.
Keep in mind that it does not take much squirt to change the OB from going into the full side of the pocket to going into the center of the pocket.
Best Regards,
^^^
That's pretty much it right there.
"Spin" or "english" only exaggerates what you want the cue ball to do, and you don't need to go very far off center to achieve lots of spin. Its all in the stroke.
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The other night I was experimenting with TOI and balls were dropping and position was working well, then tonight I did not do as well. I think if you made it your go to game and got consistent it would be very effective. What I found to make the biggest difference in using it is, when CJ says a touch of inside, that is exactly what he means, any more than that is just inside english. What I mean is, for me anyway, if I look to see how much inside I am putting on it I will miss, however if I just feel how much I am putting on it instead of looking at it, I mean my tip barely moving to the inside, I am dead on. I think this is why CJ said you can't really see it, it is almost no movement at all. I was getting position where I would have never expected to using it.
Master English, but less is better than more.
The pro players simply "know" how much English they want to put on the cueball to obtain the results they are looking for. They make mistakes just like anyone else.
Amateurs use FAR MORE ENGLISH than the pros.
Pro level players will use whatever amounts of English they need to achieve the results they are looking for.
Howard Ikeda always said that you only need one half of a tip of English MAXIMUM and he could really control the path of the cueball with that. Sometimes even I will put as little as 1/16" of side spin on the cue ball on certain shots.
I think the bottom line for side spin, is that you simply have to learn to MASTER English for all shots. There is no one "SECRET" for applying English, inside or out.
The pro players simply "know" how much English they want to put on the cueball to obtain the results they are looking for. They make mistakes just like anyone else.
Amateurs use FAR MORE ENGLISH than the pros.
Pro level players will use whatever amounts of English they need to achieve the results they are looking for.
Howard Ikeda always said that you only need one half of a tip of English MAXIMUM and he could really control the path of the cueball with that. Sometimes even I will put as little as 1/16" of side spin on the cue ball on certain shots.
I think the bottom line for side spin, is that you simply have to learn to MASTER English for all shots. There is no one "SECRET" for applying English, inside or out.
irock,
I agree with what you say. My problem is two fold (for now). I just started an house individual money league & do not have the time to devote to it, for now, to make it 'my game'.
However, I did put in a 3.5 hour & 6 hour session with it besides the tinkering, & never could get consistant with it, especially when it came to position. I was always 'floating' too far or too short & sometimes on the wrong angle.
I think as I have said, it is because I am hitting maybe too firm & too 'touch' of inside to make sure I get the squirt because my normal game is not focused on squirt but more so on swerve.
I am using it for certain shots very effectively, but am a bit afraid to use it on others, for now.
Any further insights you may have would certainly be appreciated.
Best Regards,
I agree with what you say. My problem is two fold (for now). I just started an house individual money league & do not have the time to devote to it, for now, to make it 'my game'.
However, I did put in a 3.5 hour & 6 hour session with it besides the tinkering, & never could get consistant with it, especially when it came to position. I was always 'floating' too far or too short & sometimes on the wrong angle.
I think as I have said, it is because I am hitting maybe too firm & too 'touch' of inside to make sure I get the squirt because my normal game is not focused on squirt but more so on swerve.
I am using it for certain shots very effectively, but am a bit afraid to use it on others, for now.
Any further insights you may have would certainly be appreciated.
Best Regards,
If there is spin on the CB (before it gets to a rail), they are hitting it off center at contact time. No other way about it.
If you are not seeing it, its either because the videos do not show a close up good enough to see it, or the player is making an adjustment mid stroke, and the camera cant show that well. But if there is spin on the CB, there is no way to get it without an off center hit.
The camera angles can be misleading to say the least.
There is a way of applying english similar to bhe. You line up on the vertical axis where you want the strike, warm up strokes and on the contact forward stroke you move the back hand right, for left english and visa versa. Its very difficult to judge in my experience and is deffinately a 'pro' technique. I've seen a few pros use it.
Secondly you will rarely see a pro go all out and use max english. The tables they play on are extremely responsive and brand new so what might take 3 tips on an old table will only take 1 tip on a TV table. And its hard to see 1 tip on the crappy angles most tournaments show.
There is a way of applying english similar to bhe. You line up on the vertical axis where you want the strike, warm up strokes and on the contact forward stroke you move the back hand right, for left english and visa versa. Its very difficult to judge in my experience and is deffinately a 'pro' technique. I've seen a few pros use it.
Secondly you will rarely see a pro go all out and use max english. The tables they play on are extremely responsive and brand new so what might take 3 tips on an old table will only take 1 tip on a TV table. And its hard to see 1 tip on the crappy angles most tournaments show.
IMO The Pros have mastered speed control. When you get there the need for side spin is reduced. You mostly see big spin shots the first shot after the break when they might be totally out of line. Once in line speed rules in combination with the vertical axis.
usetobe,
What's your opinion regarding a center hit relative to the 'aim line' that is hit with a cue stick that has been 'adjusted' off of the 'aim line' either in what I call a hooking in or a slicing out direction?
Or for example, if Busty lined up his cue to the right of center, maybe looking down the left side of his shaft for an aiming guide line, but then hit the ball in the exact center, relative to the 'aim line'. The cue would not be on the aim line but would be angled, pointed to the left.
Best Regards,
I follow the science guy's logic, which state that what the CB does depends on where the actual "chalk mark" is, and what "velocity" the stick had at time of impact. Note, the word "velocity" includes speed plus direction in its meaning.
I'd bet any amount of money that if you took a Bustamante tricked out spin shot where it looked like he hit center ball, and inspected the CB for the chalk mark, it would not be on center.
Note, I'm not a good player, seriously.
I'd bet any amount of money that if you took a Bustamante tricked out spin shot where it looked like he hit center ball, and inspected the CB for the chalk mark, it would not be on center.
Note, I'm not a good player, seriously.
I hear you. That is why I was specifying 'relative to the 'aim line'' If he sets up with his bridge & tip off set to the right & then 'hooks' back to a center hit on the aim line then he is hitting off set to the hittng angle of the stick.
The science is the science but the perception & the words to describe what the shooter perceives are relative to one's view point.
Best Regards,
At Derby in '07 (sadly,my only trip-so far) i watched Efren, Busty, Luat and Parica as much as possible. For the most part, they all line-up pretty much center and then pivot back-end for spin. What Efren does is almost freakish in that it looks like he barely moves off center but he achieves crazy spin and yet he still pockets balls. Dude's from another planet.
Joey,
I agree & well stated. I very often shoot out on the miscue envelope to get a high spin to speed ratio. Since trying CJ's TOI, I have become aware of how much spin one can get hitting a bit more than his 'touch' when using a firm grip & wrist. 'Mastering' is the key.
Hope You had a Merry Christmas & Have a Happy New Year,
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Joey,
Is 46 years enough or do I need to get some more before I walk into Buffalos?
I'm thinking I need more, because I've never played for 34 Bags of Sand.:wink:
Regards,
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If you bring 34 bags of sand I will play you for some of it.
I like playing old guys except for that old buzzard who owns all of those Balabushkas and U.S. Open winner cues over in Texas. That old dude beat me 4 in a row.