Overhanded or Underhanded

One Pocket John said:
Thanks Freddie

You nailed it. However, on the underhanded stroke there is no shoulder movement, only an elbow drop, maybe 4" to 6".

So would it be safe to say that you use more of a pendulum stroke?

Thanks again. I enjoy your site.

John
Click to expand...

We're thinking the same. A shoulder pivot is an an elbow drop with the fulcrum at the shoulder not a shoulder motion..

Search Kim Davenport's follow through or search Johnny Archer's Mosconi Cup 2012 cut break follow through on Youtube for some clear examples of what I think you're describing.

I mostly try the Set Pause Finish pendulum, but some shots I just naturally do that piston follow through.

Freddie <~~~ unconsciously subconscious
 
One Pocket John said:
Thanks Freddie

You nailed it. However, on the underhanded stroke there is no shoulder movement, only an elbow drop, maybe 4" to 6".

So would it be safe to say that you use more of a pendulum stroke?

Thanks again. I enjoy your site.

John
Click to expand...
I still think the underhand/overhand labels are incorrect and confusing.

Most pool players I've watched carefully have two distinct strokes. The one used for softer shots has only the forearm moving. This is usually referred to as a pendulum stroke. The second kind of stroke is used on faster, more powerful shots. The first part of the stroke is the same as the pendulum -- that is with the upper arm stationary -- but at the end of the stroke the upper arm drops by about its own thickness. My feeling is that this prevents uncomfortable binding of the biceps; if you don't drop the elbow a little on those shots the finish looks jerky and unnatural.

Here is an article from Billiards Digest that discusses the "theory" of the two strokes: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-02.pdf

Here is a follow-up article from Billiards Digest that discusses some observations about strokes at a Mosconi Cup and has a little history on stances: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-03.pdf
 
You have been here two years. You obviously are very familiar with the proper terms of pendulum and piston stroke. Why the need to rename them to something that doesn't make any sense to anyone but you? Doing so only makes you look like a doofus. And I mean that in a helpful way, not a demeaning way.
 
John,

Are you trying to differentiate the difference between a 'pendulum' stroke & a piston J stroke or are you trying to associate the more 'normal' wrist action & CJ Wiley's inverted action to one stroke or the other?

Are you referring to the more 'normal' wrist action as underhand & CJ's type wrist action as overhand?

Best Wishes to All,
 
ENGLISH! said:
John,

Are you trying to differentiate the difference between a 'pendulum' stroke & a piston J stroke or are you trying to associate the more 'normal' wrist action & CJ Wiley's inverted action to one stroke or the other?

Are you referring to the more 'normal' wrist action as underhand & CJ's type wrist action as overhand?

Best Wishes to All,
Click to expand...

No, I was just trying to find out what percentage of players use the Pendulum stroke and what percentage use the Piston stroke as stated in my first post. (I call the pendulum stroke overhanded and the piston stroke underhanded - my bad should'nt have done that)

Or, does the type of shot dictate which stroke to use.

Thanks

John
 
One Pocket John said:
No, I was just trying to find out what percentage of players use the Pendulum stroke and what percentage use the Piston stroke as stated in my first post. ...
Click to expand...
My observation is that very few US pool players use a true piston stroke (straight-line cue motion throughout backstroke and forward stroke) but lots of snooker players do. If you watch some snooker videos it's pretty obvious why and how those players have developed nearly perfect piston strokes.
 
Bob Jewett said:
My observation is that very few US pool players use a true piston stroke (straight-line cue motion throughout backstroke and forward stroke) but lots of snooker players do. If you watch some snooker videos it's pretty obvious why and how those players have developed nearly perfect piston strokes.
Click to expand...

It seems like it's very setup/stance related.

In the US, it seems like people are more casual with their stance and the arm and cue swing freely from the body. This may make a pendulum stroke more 'natural' in this approach.

Whereas snooker players , and myself for some unknown reason ;) , typically seem to use multiple body contact points to 'locate' the cue. This makes a pendulum stroke nearly impossible and a 'piston' stroke very natural. At least as I see it.
 
One Pocket John said:
No, I was just trying to find out what percentage of players use the Pendulum stroke and what percentage use the Piston stroke as stated in my first post. (I call the pendulum stroke overhanded and the piston stroke underhanded - my bad should'nt have done that)

Or, does the type of shot dictate which stroke to use.

Thanks

John
Click to expand...

Its all good John! just a little misunderstanding :thumbup:
 
RRfireblade said:
It seems like it's very setup/stance related.

In the US, it seems like people are more casual with their stance and the arm and cue swing freely from the body. This may make a pendulum stroke more 'natural' in this approach.

Whereas snooker players , and myself for some unknown reason ;) , typically seem to use multiple body contact points to 'locate' the cue. This makes a pendulum stroke nearly impossible and a 'piston' stroke very natural. At least as I see it.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your comment.

John
 
Bob Jewett said:
My observation is that very few US pool players use a true piston stroke (straight-line cue motion throughout backstroke and forward stroke) but lots of snooker players do. If you watch some snooker videos it's pretty obvious why and how those players have developed nearly perfect piston strokes.
Click to expand...

Thanks again Bob.

John
 
Neil

Neil,

I know you responded to this thread but you have been on my ignore list for almost 2 years.

It didn't take me long to recognize that you have absolutely nothing constructive to add to any thread posted on AZB.

John :smile:
 
Last edited:
One Pocket John said:
What percentage of your shots do use an underhanded stroke (like pitching a softball into a bucket) and what percentage of your shots do you use an overhanded stroke (like throwing a dart).

Or does the shot dictate which stroke to use?

Thanks :smile:

John
Click to expand...

--------------------------------------------------------------
I understand you because I apply essentially this "overhand/underhand" consciously-
while many will argue that you must execute a consistent stroke varying only by speed and english, those who do not push the envelope, either by horseplay or experimentation never come to realise the intricacies that you're trying to convey- not that they are wrong or you are wrong in your description- most are seeking to achieve a "pure" stroke.
this means not doing goofy things that may hurt consistency or create a bad habit. but because I've had the lifelong pleasure to be around prop bettors, I know the straightest stroke does not always go straight :wink:
 
I have thought this over for the last 2 days since this post and I still have no idea what your talking about.---Smitty
 
I think John wants to know who uses both the piston (underhand) and pendulum (overhand) stroke regularly in their game and what percentage do you use them individually. Example: 70% piston and 30% pendulum... I think.
Now I am not sure if John is relating this to the stroke needed to apply the TOI technique from CJ willey?
 
One Pocket John said:
Neil,

I know you responded to this thread but you have been on my ignore list for almost 2 years.

It didn't take me long to recognize that you have absolutely nothing constructive to add to any thread posted on AZB.

John :smile:
Click to expand...

Still waiting for your great contribution on here.:boring2::boring2::rolleyes:
 
Chicagoplayer said:
--------------------------------------------------------------
I understand you because I apply essentially this "overhand/underhand" consciously-
while many will argue that you must execute a consistent stroke varying only by speed and english, those who do not push the envelope, either by horseplay or experimentation never come to realise the intricacies that you're trying to convey- not that they are wrong or you are wrong in your description- most are seeking to achieve a "pure" stroke.
this means not doing goofy things that may hurt consistency or create a bad habit. but because I've had the lifelong pleasure to be around prop bettors, I know the straightest stroke does not always go straight :wink:
Click to expand...

Thank you for your honest post ..........I hear ya. :smile:
Its not always easy is it

John
 
Chicagoplayer said:
--------------------------------------------------------------
I understand you because I apply essentially this "overhand/underhand" consciously-
while many will argue that you must execute a consistent stroke varying only by speed and english, those who do not push the envelope, either by horseplay or experimentation never come to realise the intricacies that you're trying to convey- not that they are wrong or you are wrong in your description- most are seeking to achieve a "pure" stroke.
this means not doing goofy things that may hurt consistency or create a bad habit. but because I've had the lifelong pleasure to be around prop bettors, I know the straightest stroke does not always go straight :wink:
Click to expand...

Thanks

Your post conveys what I have experienced during my many years of playing (almost 50)
Sometimes folks really get too rapped up on using a common stroke, when a choice of stoke is available. Be it overhanded (pendulum) or underhanded (piston)

Thanks
John
 
Chicagoplayer said:
--------------------------------------------------------------
I understand you because I apply essentially this "overhand/underhand" consciously-
while many will argue that you must execute a consistent stroke varying only by speed and english, those who do not push the envelope, either by horseplay or experimentation never come to realise the intricacies that you're trying to convey- not that they are wrong or you are wrong in your description- most are seeking to achieve a "pure" stroke.
this means not doing goofy things that may hurt consistency or create a bad habit. but because I've had the lifelong pleasure to be around prop bettors, I know the straightest stroke does not always go straight :wink:
Click to expand...

Thanks, there are different strokes for different times.
I agree.

John
 
RG1 said:
I think John wants to know who uses both the piston (underhand) and pendulum (overhand) stroke regularly in their game and what percentage do you use them individually. Example: 70% piston and 30% pendulum... I think.
Now I am not sure if John is relating this to the stroke needed to apply the TOI technique from CJ willey?
Click to expand...

True, Thanks RG

John
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top