I started out like I'm sure most of us did playing 8 ball, as I got better I moved to straight pool on 8 ft tables and that taught me a lot about ball placement, also endless nights of playing 9 ball "pill partners" at the pool hall till the sun came up. For me the more I played the more natural it became to play off the rails. I never found myself using the diamonds so much for aiming, but if I picked up a partner that didn't play well, I could ususally point out where to hit. How many years have you been playing?
playing well without aiming systems
- Thread starter obclassicut
- Start date
I believe that if you find your bestest setup that, on it's own, that will take care of aiming. Most of the pros I've spoken to over the years say the same thing: if you set up right you can pretty much close you eyes and make the ball and never mind about aiming systems.
The only reason you don't close your eyes is because pool requires you to hit the CB all over the place, at different speeds, and often with elevation, so you need to make those adjustments. Somewhat obviously, there is no system for that other than practice, experience, feel, and more practice.
Lou Figueroa
Even the greatest bank players throw/hold/stiff (whatever term you choose) shots
I just have to "agree to disagree" with those that recommend hitting "center ball". This is much more difficult than most players realize and even with a great stroke your bound to hit it slightly off 1-5% of the time. This makes the cue ball slightly deflect and leaves you confused on exactly why you miss certain shots.
I deflect every shot (unless dead staight in) so that I can play the shot to overcut slightly. This gives me a chance to play the pocket as a "Zone," and thus gives me more margin of error than a "center ball" hitter. All champion players throw balls in by cuing it off center whether their aware of it or not.
Even the greatest bank players throw/hold/stiff (whatever term you choose) their banks so they curve slighly into the hole. This also gives them a pocket "zone" and more margin for error, thus increasing their percentages (and confidence).
This isn't just true in pool, but in golf, bowling, baseball, tennis, etc. Being able to "move" the ball though spin or deflection is the key that increases a players awareness of the "deeper" level of pocket billiards. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I just have to "agree to disagree" with those that recommend hitting "center ball". This is much more difficult than most players realize and even with a great stroke your bound to hit it slightly off 1-5% of the time. This makes the cue ball slightly deflect and leaves you confused on exactly why you miss certain shots.
I deflect every shot (unless dead staight in) so that I can play the shot to overcut slightly. This gives me a chance to play the pocket as a "Zone," and thus gives me more margin of error than a "center ball" hitter. All champion players throw balls in by cuing it off center whether their aware of it or not.
Even the greatest bank players throw/hold/stiff (whatever term you choose) their banks so they curve slighly into the hole. This also gives them a pocket "zone" and more margin for error, thus increasing their percentages (and confidence).
This isn't just true in pool, but in golf, bowling, baseball, tennis, etc. Being able to "move" the ball though spin or deflection is the key that increases a players awareness of the "deeper" level of pocket billiards. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Aiming Methods not Systems
Obclassicut,
Im not an aiming system guy at all. Im an aiming method guy. In other words I put into practice "ways" to naturally see what I know to be right and recognize it as right, then its my job to get the ball there to make the shot be that with center ball or english.
Im doing pretty good with my method. I work a lot and dont get a lot of time to play recently I found a place to play some on the weekend at a tournament and that is more play that Ive gotten in years.
Result is my method has enabled me to get to the place that I roll from shot to shot and get out more often than not unless there is a problem I cant break up.
What I found out with a lot of more experienced players who are persitent that they obtain an understanding they cant describle but they are able to play great pool.
What I sought was a way to get the normal average player to that place through the use of a method because it difficult to describe the way to get to that place in your game although I believe I can do a pretty good job of it if asked.
Now will I on here? Probably not. Why? Id like to sell a few books and I am also working on some new material which is an extention of a method in the current book.
I found what you said about Aiming systems intriguing though. I hear a lot about them and had a friend try to describe what to do and I couldnt make any sense of it. But I can make balls all day and I can understand why a purely natural player like yourself would say....What? and aiming system....its what a lot of us out here say. So Ive tried to make sense of the whole aiming scenario and be able to describe how to get to that higher sense of feel that all of us who make it up there know how to do what we do.
The good news is I think I can get a player there as long as he doesnt let his own opinions blind him. There is a lot to learning how to aim when you dont have help. Im convinced now that Ive reached this point that there is a short cut to taking a lot of time off learning the traditional way, but there is no way to substitute aiming the way you and I both have come to understand it with an aiming system because with an aiming system and without the knowledge of feel......there is no way In my mind that one can obtain the whole game of pool.
Obclassicut,
Im not an aiming system guy at all. Im an aiming method guy. In other words I put into practice "ways" to naturally see what I know to be right and recognize it as right, then its my job to get the ball there to make the shot be that with center ball or english.
Im doing pretty good with my method. I work a lot and dont get a lot of time to play recently I found a place to play some on the weekend at a tournament and that is more play that Ive gotten in years.
Result is my method has enabled me to get to the place that I roll from shot to shot and get out more often than not unless there is a problem I cant break up.
What I found out with a lot of more experienced players who are persitent that they obtain an understanding they cant describle but they are able to play great pool.
What I sought was a way to get the normal average player to that place through the use of a method because it difficult to describe the way to get to that place in your game although I believe I can do a pretty good job of it if asked.
Now will I on here? Probably not. Why? Id like to sell a few books and I am also working on some new material which is an extention of a method in the current book.
I found what you said about Aiming systems intriguing though. I hear a lot about them and had a friend try to describe what to do and I couldnt make any sense of it. But I can make balls all day and I can understand why a purely natural player like yourself would say....What? and aiming system....its what a lot of us out here say. So Ive tried to make sense of the whole aiming scenario and be able to describe how to get to that higher sense of feel that all of us who make it up there know how to do what we do.
The good news is I think I can get a player there as long as he doesnt let his own opinions blind him. There is a lot to learning how to aim when you dont have help. Im convinced now that Ive reached this point that there is a short cut to taking a lot of time off learning the traditional way, but there is no way to substitute aiming the way you and I both have come to understand it with an aiming system because with an aiming system and without the knowledge of feel......there is no way In my mind that one can obtain the whole game of pool.
There have been so many discussions on this, you can find a lot of it in the aiming thread
Systems are meant to “set you up right so you can pretty much close your eyes and make the ball” this is what they are designed to do lol. I dont understand what you think systems do?
Any aiming system puts you on the same contact point regardless if you use ghost ball, see system or pro1. You can shoot at any speed, elevation or any adjustment. I do not understand why people think otherwise. lol Do you see why there is so much bad information around here. I can understand that some people were not able to apply a system but the misinformation being spread is bad lol.
There is no magical contact point that only appears when someone is using a system lol
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prad...Actually, it already has a name. It's called "feel", and is a legitimate aiming method.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
I just have to agree to disagree.
pj
chgo
One of the best players I ever ran "the road" with used "Kentuck Windage"
This is true, you must have a "reference line," which I call "The Line of the Shot" before any "system" will work for you.
I can use any aiming system and get pretty much the same results, however, they must establish a "connection" between the cue ball and object ball. There's no magic, you just need a way to create the angle you need to make the shot. Very simple, very easy.
One of the best players I ever ran "the road" with used "Kentuck Windage" and he NEVER missed a ball on the bar table (Omaha John). Well, "never say never".
Anyone that saw him play would agree he was super consistent and he taught me how to "FLOAT" the ball using the "Touch of Inside".
This is true, you must have a "reference line," which I call "The Line of the Shot" before any "system" will work for you.
I can use any aiming system and get pretty much the same results, however, they must establish a "connection" between the cue ball and object ball. There's no magic, you just need a way to create the angle you need to make the shot. Very simple, very easy.
One of the best players I ever ran "the road" with used "Kentuck Windage" and he NEVER missed a ball on the bar table (Omaha John). Well, "never say never".
Anyone that saw him play would agree he was super consistent and he taught me how to "FLOAT" the ball using the "Touch of Inside".
Beyond Center Pocket
I have only one remark that I can remember reading from a statement Stan made that I found very interesting and it was something to the effect of Pro 1 taking throw into account and he didnt reccommend using a TOI with it. He was saying to me that the system put the shot wide in the pocket to the opposite side and TOI could cause a miss.
A feel player would know where his ball was going and would be able to allow for TOI, plain old outside or slow shot speed if he knew the path to the pocket.
If what Stan said I understand correctly once you arrive at your "happy place" it shouldnt be a great stretch to learn deflecting english with it unless you dont understand where your ball is going to go in the pocket or you did your protocol wrong.
Im sure after awhile you are going to get some feel for working the system but Im not sure exactly how well one would be able to work it. I cant wait to play someone who is a cte player.
I have only one remark that I can remember reading from a statement Stan made that I found very interesting and it was something to the effect of Pro 1 taking throw into account and he didnt reccommend using a TOI with it. He was saying to me that the system put the shot wide in the pocket to the opposite side and TOI could cause a miss.
A feel player would know where his ball was going and would be able to allow for TOI, plain old outside or slow shot speed if he knew the path to the pocket.
If what Stan said I understand correctly once you arrive at your "happy place" it shouldnt be a great stretch to learn deflecting english with it unless you dont understand where your ball is going to go in the pocket or you did your protocol wrong.
Im sure after awhile you are going to get some feel for working the system but Im not sure exactly how well one would be able to work it. I cant wait to play someone who is a cte player.
This has been discussed a million times and the answer is always the same. People do whatever they want to do and are successful with many different methods.
No you don't need a formula to play pool at a high level.
Of course there are professional players who do not use a specific aiming system. And there are those who do.
As someone said recently and as I have said repeatedly, aiming goes the whole spectrum from pure feel to highly systematic. Any player can be anywhere on the spectrum at any time.
If you are happy with your game then don't fix what isn't broken. Be happy, play pool. If you think that you still want to improve and pure feel isn't doing it then maybe you might want to try something else.
John - (aiming system bully trying to FORCE people to improve, how terrible of me........as opposed to trying to dissuade others from trying to improve.)
You can use a TOI with Pro One. I set up with Pro One and make an easy, natural adjustment. I'm lined up on the shot correctly. As long as my stroke is straight, I have a high percentage of pocketing the ball.
Adding a TOI without the adjustment takes you off of the Pro One alignment. Stan's absolutely right. :yes:
Best,
Mike
I believe you! I think it's the way I played for many years. Then after a summer layoff I simply couldn't make anything. Very frustrating! After going through my fundamentals to fix what was wrong, I still struggled. I was looking for help here on AZ and found one of the aiming threads. It didn't make much sense, but I kept at it, and it finally clicked. I now play every shot with 90/90. Ron Vitello's system. If I were you, I wouldn't try to fix something if it's not broken, but you can always learn something new to improve your game. Hope this helps. :thumbup:
Wow. This must be the most civil aiming discussion I've seen on here. :thumbup: It's interesting what CJ said about seeing shots as being straight in. When I'm shooting really well, I've noticed that the shots look just that way- more like straight in shots than cut shots.
waiting is the hardest part...
I thought "BLADE" sent a name of a local you could hook up with in another thread..."I can contact Jared McGee to play you a little. He uses real CTE. I taught him a few months back. He isn't a funsy player tho. Let me know."
of course there is also Stevie or Landon or maybe take a trip out to Stan's
see no need to die of anticipation
I thought "BLADE" sent a name of a local you could hook up with in another thread..."I can contact Jared McGee to play you a little. He uses real CTE. I taught him a few months back. He isn't a funsy player tho. Let me know."
of course there is also Stevie or Landon or maybe take a trip out to Stan's
see no need to die of anticipation
Every player has their stengths and weaknesses
That's right, if you don't make an adjustment you will overcut a lot of shots. Stan showed me the Pro One system in Tunica and I was able to pocket all the shots, however, I didn't use the TOI. It's not a system for throwing balls and I could see that right away.
I can play many different styles and I can spin my ball every time, and use center ball, however, to play my top speed I MUST use TOI. That's just a fact, I play the other styles when I'm "stalling", because it's a natural way to drop my game down a ball or two.
I was talking to Max Eberle earlier and he plays a different style than I do. He uses the TOI, but just on certain shots and situations, I"m a believer in MASTERING one shot and using it as much as possible. It simplifies the game and makes it easier to get into the "zone," and that's my strength.
Every player has their stengths and weaknesses, some seek to improve their weaknesses, I seek to make my stengths as stong as possible. "different strokes for different folks"
I've always been that way and used to catch myself doing it in major tournaments too.....not a good habit. But for the big money matches I will certainly use the TOI because I can't afford not to.
That's right, if you don't make an adjustment you will overcut a lot of shots. Stan showed me the Pro One system in Tunica and I was able to pocket all the shots, however, I didn't use the TOI. It's not a system for throwing balls and I could see that right away.
I can play many different styles and I can spin my ball every time, and use center ball, however, to play my top speed I MUST use TOI. That's just a fact, I play the other styles when I'm "stalling", because it's a natural way to drop my game down a ball or two.
I was talking to Max Eberle earlier and he plays a different style than I do. He uses the TOI, but just on certain shots and situations, I"m a believer in MASTERING one shot and using it as much as possible. It simplifies the game and makes it easier to get into the "zone," and that's my strength.
Every player has their stengths and weaknesses, some seek to improve their weaknesses, I seek to make my stengths as stong as possible. "different strokes for different folks"
I've always been that way and used to catch myself doing it in major tournaments too.....not a good habit.
But for the big money matches I will certainly use the TOI because I can't afford not to.
Um, the aiming is what drives the set up. How else does a person decide what direction they are going to face and where they will stand to "set up" on the shot?
There is only a very narrow space where the shooter can place the cue and make the ball with no spin used to throw it. This shot line is the same regardless of how the player arrived there. When you lay your cue down to shoot either you are on this line or you are not. If you are not then you must throw the ball into the pocket using side spin.
That's pretty much it. Aiming comes before shooting always. This is why you can get into the shooting position and close your eyes and still make shots - because you AIMED to get the cue into the right position.
This is not a chicken and egg thing. There is no set-up that happens without aiming. You don't set-up first and then aim unless your name is Body-English Bob. So if that's what you are recommending then I have to disagree with that advice. I firmly believe that many players do use body english to compensate for their wrong alignment. Players ALWAYS aim, just sometimes, often, they are wrong and they use spin to compensate for it. This has the effect of promoting inconsistency.
Here are two videos I did on the subject:
Getting Down on the Shot
Aiming and Execution in Pool - this one focuses on the difference between being on the the perfect shot line and not being on the line and why we miss when on the perfect line and why we can make shots when not on the right line.