In Front or Through the Diamonds?
- Thread starter PaulM
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One rail and simple banks can be derived geomtrically without looking at the diamonds. Banking Balls and Simple Banks And Kicks "On The Square".
Shooting "through a diamond" is more so for certain diamond systems for multi-rail shots. Be aware that:
1) Many players excel at multi-rail kicks and banks without using diamond number count systems but rather by calculating angles and drawing lines with the mind's eye
2) Diamond count systems and geometric banking alike have to be adjusted to factor ball spin and speed
The bottom line is find out if someone means "adjacent to diamond" or "through the diamond" if they give diamond counts for a given shot, e.g. if someone says "use diamond 3.5" ask if they mean "through or adjacent to" - otherwise they are mainly pretty markers on the table for spotting balls.
More germane to your question, if you learn geometric aim for banking you can use a variety of points to sight along that may or may not include the diamonds. A "mirror" system, for example, could have the player look at a spot many feet past the cushions and diamonds and the whole table itself to aim a bank (not my favorite system).
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Bob Byrne refers to the choice as "opposite" the diamond (at the rail groove) or "through" the diamond (towards the spot in line with the inlaid sights). Some systems use one and some the other. In the case of the double-the-diamond for one-cushion cross-table kicks/banks, the "through" sighting automatically incorporates a compensation for the hook of the rolling object ball off the cushion. You need to decide for yourself with each system what you want to use. The easiest is usually "through" but other times "opposite" will give more accurate answers. It's possible that you may want to use both (through on the first cushion and opposite on the third) in one system.
The results are better. Changing from through to opposite on the third rail, for example, will move the estimated contact a little along the rail. Some tables might require that and maybe your preferred stroke will come out closer to one than the other. Try and see.
And with that my friend, you can spend a lifetime of banking trying to perfect...
IMO, it's easier to estimate through the diamonds when possible, aiming opposite the diamond involves more visualization to keep that spot in your vision and make sure the side of the cue ball contacts that spot, especially when approaching the rail from an angle.
As Bob said, though, some systems are built using the opposite approach, and that is of course more geometrically correct since that's the limit of the cue ball travel. The reason a lot of the systems work with through the diamond aiming is because of that compensation for the hook and spin action resulting from contact with the rail.
With either approach, one must pay attention to the speed and spin used to make the results consistent, and certain tables may require opposite aiming instead of through for a particular system to work.
Scott
As Bob said, though, some systems are built using the opposite approach, and that is of course more geometrically correct since that's the limit of the cue ball travel. The reason a lot of the systems work with through the diamond aiming is because of that compensation for the hook and spin action resulting from contact with the rail.
With either approach, one must pay attention to the speed and spin used to make the results consistent, and certain tables may require opposite aiming instead of through for a particular system to work.
Scott
How I read Bob's post is the 3rd rail contact point is opposite the diamond. Agreed.
The 5 system, which I find doesn't work on most pool tables. Coming off 2 on the 3rd rail from 5 goes to 7 or 7.5 not 8 (the corner). So aiming opposite diamond 3 will lengthen the shot.
The 5 system has adjustments that usually aren't published, someone like Bob needs to sought out to really learn it. Then further adjustments can be made per table. I aim both ways depending on the general family of shots. ie Long Angle vs Short Angle shots.
Other adjustments are required depending on CB position. Numbers fall down in certian areas of the table.
Point of aim is not cut and dry.
The 5 system, which I find doesn't work on most pool tables. Coming off 2 on the 3rd rail from 5 goes to 7 or 7.5 not 8 (the corner). So aiming opposite diamond 3 will lengthen the shot.
The 5 system has adjustments that usually aren't published, someone like Bob needs to sought out to really learn it. Then further adjustments can be made per table. I aim both ways depending on the general family of shots. ie Long Angle vs Short Angle shots.
Other adjustments are required depending on CB position. Numbers fall down in certian areas of the table.
Point of aim is not cut and dry.
True. Many pool tables with old, dirty cloth play horribly short for the fourth rail which is usually the interesting point to a 3-C player. It is also interesting to a pool player who is trying to hit a ball in the open table (not near a cushion) and the angle from the third rail to the fourth needs to be adjusted from the ideal value.
I have found that most pool tables get the third rail contact point fairly consistently, presumably because the two cushions struck give opposite errors (shorter then longer on a pool table) so there is some cancellation.
And then there is the pool table I used to play on frequently that played a diamond shorter at the fourth rail going counterclockwise compared to clockwise from 5 to 2.
This may be all the help you will need with kicking and/or banking. Take a look.
http://www.zerox-billiards.com/
I have the kicking system and its top notch.
John :smile:
LOL I can't remember ever seeing a clean pool table along with clean balls at the same time. But I have a short memory.
What I was suggesting is there are "rules to the systems but rules are made to be broken. Aiming Through the Rail or Opposite can be an adjustment for that particular table. Systems are perfect on paper and good to know but then we don't play on paper. The math is perfect, I'm not nor is the table.
You can also aim the front or back edge of the CB vs only the center. Depends on what we're dealt.
in my experience if the bank or kick is a single rail and you are shooting with natural roll and slow speed through the diamond if you are shooting harder than that or using top then adjacent to the diamond but adjustments must be done for speed or spin.
I too recently set out to improve my banks.
An old pro advised me to learn to just eyeball and feel the proper cut and speed.
So far so good . . . . .
To tell you the truth, I never think much about diamonds, I try to think about "lines" in general and where they lead to and how they come off the rails.
Of course, I'm not an 'A' player . . . . . but I'd rather 'feel' the shot and trust my judgment then apply some sort of formula.
However, sometimes formulas help guide me, but I let my instinct make the decisions.
Is that nuts?
I use the diamond system quite a lot, mainly for kicking, but do use it for some 2 and 3 cushion banks. For me, aiming through the diamond is easiest. As stated, speed, talbe/cloth conditions and many other thing affect the results. Once you determine if the table is playing long, short, or on the money, the system can be very accurate. I am no expert by any means, but using the diamond system has gotten me out of many traps.
I do bank many shots based on feel, but if the shot requires more than one cushion to execute, I prefer a system, but that's just me. There are some basic diagrams, and some very complicated ones on the net. Look at some of the more simple ones, get on a table, and give it a try. Providing you use running english, and hit the ball through the diamond at medium speed, things are very repeatable.
One very simple system on one rail bank is "angle into the cushion will get you the same angle off the cushion or as a guy once told me "angle in/angle out". Of course this also is determined by speed, english and other conditions.
I do bank many shots based on feel, but if the shot requires more than one cushion to execute, I prefer a system, but that's just me. There are some basic diagrams, and some very complicated ones on the net. Look at some of the more simple ones, get on a table, and give it a try. Providing you use running english, and hit the ball through the diamond at medium speed, things are very repeatable.
One very simple system on one rail bank is "angle into the cushion will get you the same angle off the cushion or as a guy once told me "angle in/angle out". Of course this also is determined by speed, english and other conditions.
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