John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[Jal]

....

Some people labor for years "trying" to see {a ghost ball} or a contact point on the cue ball (then try to hit the "contact point" with a cue ball "contact point" - talk about challenging:frown.

This is a fruitless pursuit and will lead to many frustrating hours at the table.

...

Except that likely everyone uses some aspect of ghostball, dare I say, including yourself. The alternatives are enough to give Rube Goldberg a headache.

Without it, you need a unique set up/procedure not only for each cut angle at some particular CB-OB separation, but an adjusted set of procedures for each different CB-OB separation. And you can't call upon whatever intuitions you have about colliding spheres as a guide. If you're using deflection to create the angle, in addition you'd have to retool the entire set should you happen on a cue with a different characteristic.

You could pull it off if you're a real memory champ, of course. But, to my awareness, no advocate of these supposed ghostball-less systems, CTE for another example, has indicated that they're aware of the amount of memorization involved, or even what it is they have to memorize (i.e., what has to change from shot to shot). This suggests very strongly that they're reverting to their old ghostball-based system to obtain the final aim line.

The advantages of ghostball-based aiming are 1) you had a rough idea of how to do it the first time you picked up a cue, and 2) it only requires one picture in your mind per cut angle, regardless of CB-OB separation.


Jim

 

[JB Cases]

Except that likely everyone uses some aspect of ghostball, dare I say, including yourself. The alternatives are enough to give Rube Goldberg a headache.

Without it, you need a unique set up/procedure not only for each cut angle at some particular CB-OB separation, but an adjusted set of procedures for each different CB-OB separation. And you can't call upon whatever intuitions you have about colliding spheres as a guide. If you're using deflection to create the angle, in addition you'd have to retool the entire set should you happen on a cue with a different characteristic.

You could pull it off if you're a real memory champ, of course. But, to my awareness, no advocate of these supposed ghostball-less systems, CTE for another example, has indicated that they're aware of the amount of memorization involved, or even what it is they have to memorize (i.e., what has to change from shot to shot). This suggests very strongly that they're reverting to their old ghostball-based system to obtain the final aim line.

The advantages of ghostball-based aiming are 1) you had a rough idea of how to do it the first time you picked up a cue, and 2) it only requires one picture in your mind per cut angle, regardless of CB-OB separation.


Jim

Actually it has been my observation that people who first pick up a cue have no such rough idea of ghost ball aiming. And even after you show it to them they still don't really see it or get it.

And for your #2 assertion the picture that is in a person's mind is not necessarily correct and gets harder to form as the cut angle increases.

I am certain that if there were a way to do a controlled experiment where one player was taught GB for a week and the other taught CTE - AFTER both spent a week learning how to stroke straight then the CTE user would be the better shotmaker if both were to have a shotmaking contest after the two weeks of training.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I've heard about the "ghost ball" on this Forum, I just can't relate to what it

Except that likely everyone uses some aspect of ghostball, dare I say, including yourself. The alternatives are enough to give Rube Goldberg a headache.

Without it, you need a unique set up/procedure not only for each cut angle at some particular CB-OB separation, but an adjusted set of procedures for each different CB-OB separation. And you can't call upon whatever intuitions you have about colliding spheres as a guide. If you're using deflection to create the angle, in addition you'd have to retool the entire set should you happen on a cue with a different characteristic.

You could pull it off if you're a real memory champ, of course. But, to my awareness, no advocate of these supposed ghostball-less systems, CTE for another example, has indicated that they're aware of the amount of memorization involved, or even what it is they have to memorize (i.e., what has to change from shot to shot). This suggests very strongly that they're reverting to their old ghostball-based system to obtain the final aim line.

The advantages of ghostball-based aiming are 1) you had a rough idea of how to do it the first time you picked up a cue, and 2) it only requires one picture in your mind per cut angle, regardless of CB-OB separation.


Jim

I agree, Jim, if you can use the "ghost ball" method you can certainly do something I can't do and should stick to it. I have no problem admitting I can't see something, and if I understood it better maybe I could. I've heard about the "ghost ball" on this Forum, I just can't relate to what it is and how you visualize it.

I have one question about it that bothers me. When the balls are different distances apart they "appear" to be different sizes (this is just "distance perception of course), so do you see the ghost ball as the same size or does the ghost ball size remain constant?

I've been curious sense about this the past 3 months, and never had a chance to ask anyone. I appreciate your opinion on this matter.

 

[ENGLISH!]

When I was introduced to the game by my Dad when I was 13, he showed me with another ball where I had to make the CB hit the OB to pocket the ball with no mention of ghost ball. I aimed my cue & the CB to the outside where I estimated it should be to pocket the ball. I made some & I missed some. Rather quickly I started to shift my focus to the 'contact point' on the OB & what portion of the CB I had to overlap from the vantage point from the cue side of the CB. Hence I stumbled upon equal fractional overlap. I have never visualized a 'Ghost Ball'.

That being said, natually the principle is still there as it is basically part of the physics or geometry of the game.

What ever system one employs The Ghost Ball is still looming although one may never think about it & certainly not 'really' see it.

Just my nickel.

 

[AtLarge]

... I've heard about the "ghost ball" on this Forum, I just can't relate to what it is and how you visualize it.

What aiming method did you use in your developmental period (teenager or younger)?

I have one question about it that bothers me. When the balls are different distances apart they "appear" to be different sizes (this is just "distance perception of course), so do you see the ghost ball as the same size or does the ghost ball size remain constant?

I've been curious sense about this the past 3 months, and never had a chance to ask anyone. I appreciate your opinion on this matter.

The ghost ball is in contact with the OB. So, for all intents and purposes, it is, visually, the same size as the OB.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"connect the different dots for different shots."

What aiming method did you use in your developmental period (teenager or younger)?



The ghost ball is in contact with the OB. So, for all intents and purposes, it is, visually, the same size as the OB.

I would think the "ghost ball" could be any size you imagine it to be. I still haven't met any players, that visualizes the cue ball{ghost ball}, they are more interested in the real one. The REAL cue ball is the target, imagining it somewhere else on the table doesn't seem practical, however, I"ll keep an open mind.

We (I'm with 3 other accomplished players) would like to see someone project a hologram of their own personal "ghost ball," that would be interesting to see. I've studied the mind under some qualified experts and I don't think someone could convince them they see an imaginary cue ball or ghost ball or any ball for that matter. I know the center and edge of the object ball exists and I'll bet my money and reputation on it. Will the "ghostballers"? Do you know how difficult and frustrating it would be to rely on an imaginary ball, what if one day it didn't show up?

The more I think about honestly playing with a ghost ball to aim with the more my mind visualizes Big Foot. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I really think it does a lot of damage representing to amateur players that a "ghost ball" is being seen by people. Maybe if you were teaching kids that had imaginary friends - and come to think of it, I had imaginary friends that I played with (when I was 7-9) and they never saw a ghost ball either.

I've always connected the balls together above the shot just like every other top player I've ever talked to. "Connecting the dots" is what we used to call it. "Different dots for different shots." :wink: I come off either center or edge because with those two reference points you can create ANY angle.

Plane and simple, I can do this two different ways, and probably more if I wanted to use any other form of Center/Edge or sectional type aiming. I use the TOI technique because it blends my shot speed, aiming, and cue ball target into one "system" so I don't have to think about anything but playing.

To have fun playing pool there's no reason to make it complicated, after all there's champion players that don't even know what they do. I just made the effort and took the time to figure out what I did. It literally took thousands of hours, so please don't think it's "natural" or easy.....that would be far from the truth. 'The Game Has Been My Teacher'

 

[ENGLISH!]

...I've always connected the balls together above the shot just like every other top player I've ever talked to. "Connecting the dots" is what we used to call it. "Different dots for different shots." :wink: I come off either center or edge because with those two reference points you can create ANY angle.

Plane and simple, I can do this two different ways, and probably more if I wanted to use any other form of Center/Edge or sectional type aiming. I use the TOI technique because it blends my shot speed, aiming, and cue ball target into one "system" so I don't have to think about anything but playing....

'The Game Has Been My Teacher'

Hi CJ,

I just cancelled a long post about Ghost Ball in another thread. I very quickly gravitated to equal frational overlaps when I was 13 yrs' old.

I asked a question of you somewhere, but it seems to have gotten lost.

You seemd to have answered part of it above, but do you think you could play using TOI based off of only 3 parts of the CB to go along with the 2 points on the OB? That is center, quarter, & edge.

If so, how would you go about changing the CB squirt/deflection needed. That is tip offset, speed, cue elevation, & combinations naturally. Can you qualify them in order of effectiveness for you?

Thanks in advance & thanks again for your participation here on AZB

 

[CJ Wiley]

(you don't have to learn these things from me, just do yourself a favor and learn the

Hi CJ,

I just cancelled a long post about Ghost Ball in another thread. I very quickly gravitated to equal frational overlaps when I was 13 yrs' old.

I asked a question of you somewhere, but it seems to have gotten lost.

You seemd to have answered part of it above, but do you think you could play using TOI based off of only 3 parts of the CB to go along with the 2 points on the OB? That is center, quarter, & edge.

If so, how would you go about changing the CB squirt/deflection needed. That is tip offset, speed, cue elevation, & combinations naturally. Can you qualify them in order of effectiveness for you?

Thanks in advance & thanks again for your participation here on AZB

This is all explained and demonstrated in the new TOI video. I think you "real eyes" by now it's too difficult to explain these techniques without "seeing it with our own eyes." "A picture is worth a thousand words and a video is worth a thousand posts" CJ Wiley

Ok, I'll give you a hint:

The cue angle, body angles, distance from the cue ball, and connection to the shot (for creating the shot angle) MUST be done in your pre shot routine first, using your cue as a measuring and alignment devise.

We only play the Game with the TIP, however, the cue gives the TIP speed, power,accuracy - THE CUE also should be used to help align (straight) and determine your ideal distance from the cue ball so it {the cue ball} appears the same, visually, on EVERY SHOT.

The relationship you establish with the cue ball is vital because it's your target and how you physically connect to the Game (though your HANDS and your TIP).

These points are all demonstrated in my 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' www.cjwiley.com (you don't have to learn these things from me, just do yourself a huge favor and learn them)

 

[Jal]

Actually it has been my observation that people who first pick up a cue have no such rough idea of ghost ball aiming. And even after you show it to them they still don't really see it or get it.

Pool might not be their best choice of game.

And for your #2 assertion the picture that is in a person's mind is not necessarily correct and gets harder to form as the cut angle increases.

Very true. Alas, it's all we've got.

I am certain that if there were a way to do a controlled experiment where one player was taught GB for a week and the other taught CTE - AFTER both spent a week learning how to stroke straight then the CTE user would be the better shotmaker if both were to have a shotmaking contest after the two weeks of training.

John, it's not a matter of ghostball based versus non-ghostball. No one has yet to describe a legitimate non-ghostball system, to my knowledge. It can be done - CTE can be turned into one, for instance - but I think most would flee from the details.

(Note that I'm using 'ghostball based' to mean imagining some part of the cueball in relation to the object ball at impact, not necessarily the center of the cueball, which is the specific meaning of the ghostball method.)

I can't say why, but I get the feeling you're not going to wholly endorse much of the above.

Jim

 

[JoeyInCali]

Pool might not be their best choice of game.

Very true. Alas, it's all we've got.

John, it's not a matter of ghostball based versus non-ghostball. No one has yet to describe a legitimate non-ghostball system, to my knowledge. It can be done - CTE can be turned into one, for instance - but I think most would flee from the details.

(Note that I'm using 'ghostball based' to mean imagining some part of the cueball in relation to the object ball at impact, not necessarily the center of the cueball, which is the specific meaning of the ghostball method.)

I can't say why, but I get the feeling you're not going to wholly endorse much of the above.

Jim

I would imagine if you can't see where the cueball has to be to make the ball, you wouldn't see the tangent line either.
Or when you are down, you wouldn't know if your setup looks right or not.
Cueball control imo is mostly based on your imagination of the two balls colliding ( how much mass of that object ball you are hitting ), tip location and stroke.

 

[Jal]

I agree, Jim, if you can use the "ghost ball" method you can certainly do something I can't do and should stick to it. I have no problem admitting I can't see something, and if I understood it better maybe I could. I've heard about the "ghost ball" on this Forum, I just can't relate to what it is and how you visualize it.

I have one question about it that bothers me. When the balls are different distances apart they "appear" to be different sizes (this is just "distance perception of course), so do you see the ghost ball as the same size or does the ghost ball size remain constant?

I've been curious sense about this the past 3 months, and never had a chance to ask anyone. I appreciate your opinion on this matter.

CJ, I don't (I think) generally try to imagine the entire ghostball and then aim for its center. I've come to associate the amount of overlap (as in eclipse) with the object ball's subsequent direction. (My response to JB above indicates what I mean by 'ghostball based.') So at least the overlapping part of the ghostball is essentially the same, or nearly the same size as the object ball. (There are perspective issues with ghostball which render it less than perfect, depending on how you deal with them.)

Another point of disagreement. While I think I may understand some of the physics/geometry (in the formal sense) better than you, I'd have to be commited if I thought that I could do anything pool related as well, much less better, than you. And I admire the fact that you don't seem to be greatly offended by some of the objections we obviously lesser players raise.

Jim

 

[ENGLISH!]

[/QUOTE]


I think this is a good drawing by bdorman for reference purposes.

This is what I naturally gravitated to @ age 13 but from a horizontal viewpoint with no real focus on a ghost ball even though it is based on the geometry of a GB position.

Regards &

 

[CJ Wiley]

Inquiring minds want to know

Pool might not be their best choice of game.

Very true. Alas, it's all we've got.

John, it's not a matter of ghostball based versus non-ghostball. No one has yet to describe a legitimate non-ghostball system, to my knowledge. It can be done - CTE can be turned into one, for instance - but I think most would flee from the details.

(Note that I'm using 'ghostball based' to mean imagining some part of the cueball in relation to the object ball at impact, not necessarily the center of the cueball, which is the specific meaning of the ghostball method.)

I can't say why, but I get the feeling you're not going to wholly endorse much of the above.

Jim

I've been playing around the best players in the world for 30 years and I have yet to hear one of them talk about this "ghost ball method." I thought {it} was some kind of "urban legend," like alligators in the sewer systems. :wink:

I didn't realize people actually used it until I started seeing it "pop up," on this Forum. I can't find any champion players that use it, and of course I haven't ask "all" of them. Does anyone know any Top Players that claim to use this "ghost ball system?" Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[duckie]

You must not get out much, ever hear of Ewa Mataya? http://www.mentormob.com/learn/i/po...-of-aim/ewas-pool-school-aimingthe-ghost-ball

Plus the other clips are pretty good also.....

Instead of using another ball as the ghost, you can use Babe Cranfields the arrow which the point of is the contact patch of the 6 ball she is using. Step 3 has another version of this. I mean Babe Cranfield only run over 700 balls on a 4 1/2 x 9, so why would anyone want to use a training method he wrote about in his books? Check his credentials.....

Dang alot of that stuff in those steps sound so familiar........

 

[ENGLISH!]

Greg,

Ewa Laurance's Pool School videos are directed at beginners & she does not ever say that she uses ghost ball as an aiming technique.

To be honest, while I know of Mr. Cranefield's prowess I am not familiar with his instructional materials. Can you direct me to where he advocates using the ghost ball as an aiming method. I sincerely would like to read it.

Regards to You &

 

[lfigueroa]

I've been playing around the best players in the world for 30 years and I have yet to hear one of them talk about this "ghost ball method." I thought {it} was some kind of "urban legend," like alligators in the sewer systems. :wink:

I didn't realize people actually used it until I started seeing it "pop up," on this Forum. I can't find any champion players that use it, and of course I haven't ask "all" of them. Does anyone know any Top Players that claim to use this "ghost ball system?" Inquiring minds want to know.

Damnit!

CJ hasn't heard of it so: *it cannot be possibly so.*

Lou Figueroa
lol, guess I'll just have to tear those pages out
of those two Willie Mosconi books

 

[CJ Wiley]

I think this is a good drawing by bdorman for reference purposes.

This is what I naturally gravitated to @ age 13 but from a horizontal viewpoint with no real focus on a ghost ball even though it is based on the geometry of a GB position.

Regards &[/QUOTE]

I can see that....wait a minute it's air. What are you aiming at again? Let me get this straight, you have a perfectly good, solid ball there and you're aiming at the "air" in front of it? Makes cents to me.

 

[Jal]

I've been playing around the best players in the world for 30 years and I have yet to hear one of them talk about this "ghost ball method." I thought {it} was some kind of "urban legend," like alligators in the sewer systems. :wink:

I didn't realize people actually used it until I started seeing it "pop up," on this Forum. I can't find any champion players that use it, and of course I haven't ask "all" of them. Does anyone know any Top Players that claim to use this "ghost ball system?" Inquiring minds want to know.

Imo, in its most basic form, it's synonymous with "just knowing where to hit it" (a.k.a. feel) which, wouldn't you agree, is the way most pros do it? Since you do have to key in on some aspect(s) of the cueball-object ball spacial relationship at impact, whether it's edges, contact points, centers, etc., you're using some part of the ghostball (whatever you want to call it) to determine the aim line.

I mean, even if someone claims that they have absolutely zero idea how they aim - years of experience has made it automatic - they're not picking out some random direction in space. They have to be "looking/imagining" something out there near the object ball to ultimately come to some decision as to where to point the cue. Am I being too parochial in assuming that's our ghostball, or some part of it?

I'm not suggesting that we overtly pull up a catalogue of historic images and laboriously compare them, one by one, to the situation at hand. It mostly happens at the subconscious level.

Jim

 

[duckie]

Illustration 23

http://books.google.com/books?id=cS...onepage&q=babe cranfield aiming arrow&f=false

Google is your friend.......

 

[BeiberLvr]

Duckie, you could probably beat Ewa Laurance