TOI questions: outside english and draw

[FactoryMaster]

Brief introduction:
I've found out this new TOI technique by CJ Wiley, purchased the ppv pass, watched the videos and tryied it on the table....
It felt really akward not to aim to the "classic" contact point of the object ball, but as far as I can tell, the results are amazing !! from the first try i managed to pocket difficult cut shots easily, on my table wich has 4,15" pockets .... I want to master this technique as I feel it can take my game to a new level !

Apart from the difficulties of having to play position in a whole different manner, I have a couple of questions that the videos didnt helped out:

- Use of outside english, when it is your only choice to make position: the video says to line up and aim like you were going to use toi, then shift the cue tip laterally to apply outside english... but do I have to shift the cuestick parallel ( i.e. shifting both bridge hand and stroke hand to one way) , or do I have to "tilt" the cue ( bridge hand firm, then shift the stroke hand to the INSIDE of the shot, allowing the cue tip to hit outside of the cueball) ??
I feel its more like the second way, but I'm concerned about the fact that tilting the cue results in a disalligned stroke ... Anyway I just cant make a ball using toi allignement and outside english, so please explain me what I am missing :smile:


- second problem, I always tend to overcut shots with toi and draw (especially strong draws) . Does draw actually increase the cueball deflection or is it just my impression ? if not, it could be my stroke that becomes sluggish on strong draws and makes me apply more toi than expected...

I hope that Cj could help me :thumbup:

 

[CJ Wiley]

Hitting the cue ball pure and straight is a must before you can improve

Brief introduction:
I've found out this new TOI technique by CJ Wiley, purchased the ppv pass, watched the videos and tryied it on the table....
It felt really akward not to aim to the "classic" contact point of the object ball, but as far as I can tell, the results are amazing !! from the first try i managed to pocket difficult cut shots easily, on my table wich has 4,15" pockets .... I want to master this technique as I feel it can take my game to a new level !

Apart from the difficulties of having to play position in a whole different manner, I have a couple of questions that the videos didnt helped out:

- Use of outside english, when it is your only choice to make position: the video says to line up and aim like you were going to use toi, then shift the cue tip laterally to apply outside english... but do I have to shift the cuestick parallel ( i.e. shifting both bridge hand and stroke hand to one way) , or do I have to "tilt" the cue ( bridge hand firm, then shift the stroke hand to the INSIDE of the shot, allowing the cue tip to hit outside of the cueball) ??
I feel its more like the second way, but I'm concerned about the fact that tilting the cue results in a disalligned stroke ... Anyway I just cant make a ball using toi allignement and outside english, so please explain me what I am missing :smile:


- second problem, I always tend to overcut shots with toi and draw (especially strong draws) . Does draw actually increase the cueball deflection or is it just my impression ? if not, it could be my stroke that becomes sluggish on strong draws and makes me apply more toi than expected...

I hope that Cj could help me :thumbup:

My opinion on "outside English" is you usually don't need as much as you think, and often none at all. When I need to use "outside English" I will get down and establish my position slightly Inside the cue ball (depending on the angle I want to create) and then just move the cue back to center, and stroke straight through the center because of the slight angle you will produce English on the cue ball) . This will, in effect produce "outside spin," however, just half as much as if you cued to the outside of the cue ball.


Draw, because you are hitting it firmer will require you to move your cue over less to the Inside to produce the same results. The Touch of Inside required with the draw stroke is measured in "hairs". Not literally, of course, that's just the way I like to think "just a hair". This requires practice and calibration of your angles.

You may want to make sure your stroke if "pure" by practicing straight in shots to "fine tune" your stoke. Practice a 4 foot straight in shot of your choice until you can make it 10 times in a row before you start your TOI practice, just to insure that you are hitting the cue ball straight.

There's no bigger basic fundamental that MUST be done in pool - Hitting the cue ball pure and straight is a must before you can improve in any other way, shape or form. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[frankw]

Yes between draw and long shots, I have noticed that the toi is much less than I thought.

Each day brings a little more knowledge of toi and gotta say it's a lot of fun. Once that cue ball just 'slides' it's a feeling you want to experience over and over.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the pool "spheres" are only 6 oz's

Yes between draw and long shots, I have noticed that the toi is much less than I thought.

Each day brings a little more knowledge of toi and gotta say it's a lot of fun. Once that cue ball just 'slides' it's a feeling you want to experience over and over.

Yes, this way of playing makes the cue ball seem "heavier" and everyone that uses it will know what I'm referring to. Early on there were players that tried to tell me they were using the TOI, however, if you aren't really using TOI it's obvious to someone that does. You can't describe the technique if you haven't experienced the "heavy ball", it's like another language

Using spin "lightens" the cue ball and using TOI makes the cue ball play heavier. This would not make a huge difference if it wasn't for the fact that the pool "spheres"

are only 6 oz's, which is incredibly light in the first place. Using spin the cue ball will get away from you once in a while...using TOI it rarely does, which gives the "user" a distinct advantage over time.

 

[madmiller]

I practiced TOI for the first time and was amazed with the results.What I like the most is that during a game you basically shoot the same shot over and over which helps out a lot, especially mentally when playing against a better player. The biggest problem for me is calibrating my stroke when the angle is CTE. I just know that I didn't practice it enough and don't trust my judgement on those shots( very thin cuts) yet, so I still have to rely on my old way of shooting which was TON of inside :grin-square: instead of TOUCH when playing real game against someone.
And another thing - I tend to shoot way too hard. Sometimes I even try to barely make the ball, but it's still going in the pocket like it was shot from the cannon.
Question for you CJ. What force of the main shot do you recommend when using TOI? Lag speed? 2 table length? 1 2/2?

 

[CJ Wiley]

I have a great teacher that's awake 24/7

I practiced TOI for the first time and was amazed with the results.What I like the most is that during a game you basically shoot the same shot over and over which helps out a lot, especially mentally when playing against a better player. The biggest problem for me is calibrating my stroke when the angle is CTE. I just know that I didn't practice it enough and don't trust my judgement on those shots( very thin cuts) yet, so I still have to rely on my old way of shooting which was TON of inside :grin-square: instead of TOUCH when playing real game against someone.
And another thing - I tend to shoot way too hard. Sometimes I even try to barely make the ball, but it's still going in the pocket like it was shot from the cannon.
Question for you CJ. What force of the main shot do you recommend when using TOI? Lag speed? 2 table length? 1 2/2?

I prefer about 3 table lengths on the speed (27-30'). Shooting too hard with TOI isn't a major problem, to a certain extent it's more accurate when you hit it firmer. I would rather see a player hit TOI too hard and tone it down later better than Vice versa.

The first level of TOI comes after 3 straight hours of using it and it's a real "eye opener"....the 2nd major breakthrough is in about 3 days and you will see significant improvement after 3 weeks (playing one hour a day).

These, of course are just averages that I've seen over time, but it gives you an example of what "realistic expectations" are (fyi).

I'm glad you're getting such positive results so soon M.M. - keep me updated and feel free to ask me any question you need answered. I have a great teacher that's awake 24/7. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Mikjary]

Something that helps me establish speed control for position is something Alex Pagulyan and CJ do on their stroking. They use a short backswing even though they bridge a normal distance from the cue ball. With a shorter backswing, there's less moving parts and chances for a stroke error. You notice the urge to stroke harder through the cue ball to make up for the apparent loss of stroke length. This gives you an acceleration in your stroke for a firmer hit and eliminates any deceleration.

After a little practice, you will be able to shoot fairly soft/slow even though you perceive you are "pushing" the cue ball harder. I use an accelerating stroke on all soft shots and find that I control the cue better. My speed is reduced and my position play at all mph/kph is easier.

Max Eberle does this, too. It works well on the faster cloth and live rails. I don't feel like I'm pulling the cue. I feel like I'm pushing the cue short of a punch stroke. My hand is doing most of the work and not my arm. Too many moving parts to keep track of in the stroke. Just like TOI, your perception is everything.

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

This is VERY valuable to know because it allows you to change the length of your cue

Something that helps me establish speed control for position is something Alex Pagulyan and CJ do on their stroking. They use a short backswing even though they bridge a normal distance from the cue ball. With a shorter backswing, there's less moving parts and chances for a stroke error. You notice the urge to stroke harder through the cue ball to make up for the apparent loss of stroke length. This gives you an acceleration in your stroke for a firmer hit and eliminates any deceleration.

After a little practice, you will be able to shoot fairly soft/slow even though you perceive you are "pushing" the cue ball harder. I use an accelerating stroke on all soft shots and find that I control the cue better. My speed is reduced and my position play at all mph/kph is easier.

Max Eberle does this, too. It works well on the faster cloth and live rails. I don't feel like I'm pulling the cue. I feel like I'm pushing the cue short of a punch stroke. My hand is doing most of the work and not my arm. Too many moving parts to keep track of in the stroke. Just like TOI, your perception is everything.

Best,
Mike

Yes, Mike, this is a great point, and for me it keeps my stoke accelerating, even on finesse shots. The Cue Ball is the target in pool and you want to hit that target as accurately and precisely as possible with the TIP. The cue is just a delivery system for the TIP and can be used for many things other than what's obvious.

I use my cue to measure to the Cue Ball so I'm the same distance every time. I also use my cue to establish the same body angles I"m going to be in when I'm actually down on the shot. It's much better to establish everything and rehearse it BEFORE getting down and this includes how long your bridge will be by where you hold your right hand.

The further back you hold your right hand, the longer your bridge will be, and the further up you hold your right hand the shorter your bridge will be. This is VERY valuable to know because it allows you to change the length of your cue and bridge relative to the shot you are performing. 'The Game is the Teacher'