Pro One and TOI... Are They Compatible?

JMW

JMW

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I have been using Pro One for a while now and I really like it! But I am curious about TOI, so I ordered the TOI DVD tonight.

I have a question for those of you that know both systms. Are the Pro One and TOI systems compatible? I am talking about Pro One and NOT the manual CTE with a mechanical half tip pivot. Will I be able to use both systems at the same time?

Also, I use an 11.75mm OB Classic Pro shaft. Will this cause any issues with TOI?

Thanks for your time.
 
I do have an aiming system (on my 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' DVD)

JMW said:
I have been using Pro One for a while now and I really like it! But I am curious about TOI, so I ordered the TOI DVD tonight.

I have a question for those of you that know both systms. Are the Pro One and TOI systems compatible? I am talking about Pro One and NOT the manual CTE with a mechanical half tip pivot. Will I be able to use both systems at the same time?

Also, I use an 11.75mm OB Classic Pro shaft. Will this cause any issues with TOI?

Thanks for your time.
Click to expand...

I think this question will end being answered in Randy's thread, to me CTE is part of TOI, it's in the aiming department, however, TOI is more of a playing system than an aiming system (my aiming system and TOI just happen to use CTE and CTC as reference points, that's just coincidence).

I do have an aiming system (on my 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' DVD), and I guess I should suggest everyone take a look at it, maybe I'll post it on here in a PPV format for a nominal amount or even free for the first 24 hours to those that are following these techniques closely.

I use a 11.75 tip myself.....I suggest staying UNDER 12.5, and I still leave that up to the personal preference of the individual player.
 
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Its not really compatible with pro1 from what I have seen so far from the TOI PPV, I am not done watching it. Combining pro1 and toi will be like oil and water is what I am seeing.
 
I believe Mr. Stan answered this question elsewhere & he basically said no.

I think that was due do the TOI 3 part pocket system.

CTE/Pro1 has a built in factor for collision induced throw for the center pocket based on hitting the center of the cue ball.

I know very little about CTE/Pro1 but I believe since it is based only on CTE it has pivots or visual sweeps inside or outside.

TOI is based on either the OB center or edge but is always a parallel shift(no pivot) to the inside.

I think any compatibility would have to be renamed as the 'Enigma System'.

Just my $0.02
 
I am only the third video on the ppv but I am having trouble seeing a center to center alignment and a parallel shift inside making 15,20,25 30 degree shots? I can see this working with a center to center alignment and I can see this working with a inside parallel shift but i am finding it hard seeing them both work together?

Now when your down on the shot line on the table are you always parallel to the center to center line?
 
Str8 Shooter said:
I am only the third video on the ppv but I am having trouble seeing a center to center alignment and a parallel shift inside making 15,20,25 30 degree shots? I can see this working with a center to center alignment and I can see this working with a inside parallel shift but i am finding it hard seeing them both work together? I am afraid I don't understand what you are saying here.

Now when your down on the shot line on the table are you always parallel to the center to center line? You are either inside parallel to the center to center line or you are parallel to the center to edge line. When the angle needed is too severe to 'create' with the cue ball squirt/deflection form the center to center line a shift to the center to the edge line is used.
Click to expand...

I hope this helps you.
 
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ok, parallel it is, I just want to make sure. I understand the the transition point also. It all seems pretty easy to pick up so far.
 
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Ok i watched it all, its looks and sounds pretty easy to pick up. Getting used to how to move the cue ball around may be the most challenging part of it and long shots. Shouldn't be a problem to figure it out though :thumbup:

I will post a report when I can take it to a table in a few days :)
 
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parallel shift

Parallel shift is very important, I used a lot of back hand English and so it was different for me to shift to parallel. I set up donuts on a half ball hit ctc carried it through to the side rail using a lazer. I could then look down and see if I shifted truly parallel. It helped me a lot. Good luck.
 
cool_hand_ljb said:
Parallel shift is very important, I used a lot of back hand English and so it was different for me to shift to parallel. I set up donuts on a half ball hit ctc carried it through to the side rail using a lazer. I could then look down and see if I shifted truly parallel. It helped me a lot. Good luck.
Click to expand...

yea that seemed like a key part, were you able to pick up how far inside to shift going from shot to shot quickly or was it a struggle to figure out? did you come up with a pattern or you just figured it by feel?
 
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JMW said:
I have been using Pro One for a while now and I really like it! But I am curious about TOI, so I ordered the TOI DVD tonight.

I have a question for those of you that know both systms. Are the Pro One and TOI systems compatible? I am talking about Pro One and NOT the manual CTE with a mechanical half tip pivot. Will I be able to use both systems at the same time?

Also, I use an 11.75mm OB Classic Pro shaft. Will this cause any issues with TOI?

Thanks for your time.
Click to expand...

Cte -Pro-One takes you to the center cue ball ( the vertical axis of the cue ball), TOI takes you to a touch of inside!! You have to ask yourself.......... What is a touch of inside???????
 
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we observe the Game with our eyes, we play the Game with our hands.

pablocruz said:
Cte -Pro-One takes you to the center cue ball ( the vertical axis of the cue ball), TOI takes you to a touch of inside!! You have to ask yourself.......... What is a touch of inside???????
Click to expand...

It's not really "a touch," it's "The Touch" of Inside....I've always considered pool as more of a "touch/feel game," rather than a visual game. To feel better we must understand how to turn down our visual sense.

There's a trick to this I teach my serious students that immediately increases their feel/touch through NLP. It follows the natural human condition that when we lose our eye sight we hear and feel better. When we lose our hearing, we see and feel better.

I remember when a teenager people used to comment "he's got a great eye," and I always thought "if they only knew, it's not about the eyes, it's about the hands"......we observe the Game with our eyes, we play the Game with our hands...'The Game is the Teacher'
 
I don't see how you can successfully integrate TOI with CTE/Pro One...CTE/Pro One uses visuals and a (virtual) pivot to line you up to center pocket. If you start from there, then shift parallel to TOI, you're missing an important component--the slightly thick aim to the near side of the three part pocket. CTE/Pro One puts you in the wrong line for TOI, so any parallel adjustment to TOI just gives you half the pocket (center to far side) for the TOI effect. Using TOI with CTE would give some benefit in terms of control and a dead cueball, but I think you'd be starting off handicapped on the amount of pocket you can play with...? I predict you'll be overcutting shots more often than making them...
 
Without using my Tip System, I'm not sure how I would "cheat the pocket"

West Point 1987 said:
I don't see how you can successfully integrate TOI with CTE/Pro One...CTE/Pro One uses visuals and a (virtual) pivot to line you up to center pocket. If you start from there, then shift parallel to TOI, you're missing an important component--the slightly thick aim to the near side of the three part pocket. CTE/Pro One puts you in the wrong line for TOI, so any parallel adjustment to TOI just gives you half the pocket (center to far side) for the TOI effect. Using TOI with CTE would give some benefit in terms of control and a dead cueball, but I think you'd be starting off handicapped on the amount of pocket you can play with...? I predict you'll be overcutting shots more often than making them...
Click to expand...

That's a good point, it's important to align to the inside of the pocket so when you put the TOI it goes in the center. If you align to the center you will be forcing into the outside of the pocket and you miss out on the TOI Margin of error that maximizes the "Pocket Zone".

I think I could figure out a way to utilize both, however, I'd have to know more about the PRO 1 system, and quite frankly I don't. I think if I was teaching someone that used CTE after a few hours they would be wanting to know how I hit all three parts of the pocket.

Without using my Tip System, I'm not sure how I would "cheat the pocket" then I"d be in the same situation that I'm trying to avoid, and that's spinning the cue ball unnecessarily.....I can't do it by adjusting my "aim".....certainly not as precisely as I'm able to do it now.

hmmm, it's one of those "bacon or eggs" scenarios.
 
The way Cj the designed the system it will defeat the purpose of keeping everything simple and repetitive if you use any other kind of method of aiming then the way Cj has shown on the video. You can get other methods to work with it but you will just make the system more complicated and stressful. Cj;s way gives you the same starting point which is easy to get too and work from. Cj should be insisting that you use his CTE,CTC alignment and when you become good with the system, you can later tweak the technique how you want.
 
Using Pro1 and SEE and watching the TOI video I think they would be hard to integrate. I think any of the techniques can work, it's just that they are coming from fundamentally different directions. You wouldn't want to line up center pocket, center cue ball, with built in CIT corrections, and then start manually aiming to the outside of the pocket and shifting to the inside. And the reverse wouldn't make sense at all.

I spoke with Ekkes, and he was playing with incorporating some of these concepts with SEE, since there are built in adjustments for spin etc. already. Not sure if he's had time to play with it, I know for me there's a difference as the built in adjustment lines are predicated on spinning the ball, not really the same as the purposeful deflection with no real spin that's needed with TOI.


On another note, curious CJ - which shaft do you use? My assumption was a lot of the pro players were more around 12.5 - 12.75, but I've heard of a few using Z2 or OB2 type shafts.

Scott
 
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