Open Letter to Justin from TAR

[Palmerfan]

I have been a subscriber to TAR, and other ppv, and also travel extensively to see major tournaments in person. I would rate myself as someone with an above average love of the game, both as a spectator and amateur player.

Palmerfan, I take at face value your love for, and appreciation of straight pool. The fact that you would take it on yourself to place an open letter like this speaks volumes in respect of validating that. The well reasoned and presented viewpoint further adds to that impression. However, in my opinion, I believe that you are in the minority.

I have listened to one stream commentator that I know, and have played against, talk ad nauseum of his love of straight pool and how it is his game of choice as he revels in the delight of the chat room gang as some chatters seem to think that this adds to his pool credentials. I have not seen him practice, play or watch a game of 14.1 in the 15 years I've known him. He also claims to play a lot of snooker which, again, is simply not the case.

I think that the comments attributed to Justin (I didn't hear him say it) in respect of the lack of an overall audience for 14.1 are bang on. Justin seems to have a clear handle on who his audience is and what they want (his choices in participants also support this). In my humble opinion, 14.1 is a discipline that has had it's day, it is a self indulgent exercise for those who practice it at the highest levels and boring for the spectator.

While I would love to see more 8 ball (I enjoy the strategy) matches, I realize that the majority prefer 9 ball and 10 ball. The 10 foot table adds an interesting dimension. The recent talk of having a match with more than one discipline i.e. 8 ball, 9 ball and snooker holds some interest for me. while I would never watch 14.1, even if free, regardless of the participants I respect that there may be some, perhaps many, that do like it.

Thanks for the reply and if im in the minority then thats fine. I wanted to see if the people that would pay for a TAR match would like to see 14.1 rather then 8 Ball as I dont see 10 Ball or 1 Pocket being removed from the All Around. Some it seems would rather watch 14.1 then 1 Pocket, but that I'm sure I'm in the minority on based on the fact that 1 Pocket is a staple in an All Around these days.

 

[Fatboy]

The fact of the matter is, he's right. There is a very small amount of 14.1 fans. Case & point, how many 14.1 tournaments are there? I know of the "World 14.1", which struggles and if it weren't for Dr. Fednak it might not exist. And also the Maryland state championship. I cannot think of another one...

It's most popular in nyc and honestly it's not even THAT popular here. I would doubt Justin has anything personal against the game, but it just doesn't sell.

I agree, one solution is if JCIN could contact Randy Goldwater and see if Randy has any interest in doing a JV with JCIN/TAR for the NYC crowd. I havent spoken to Randy in a while, so i'm not sure how active he is right now in pool, he wasn't last time we meet up. However if he is Randy has done lots for 14.1 and pool, just like JCIN has with TAR.

so perhaps they might be able to work something out, otherwise I just dont see it happening. I've been a west coast player for 90% of the time I spent playing pool and I know 2 14.1 players, Max and JS, nobody else ever plays it. take that back there are 2 guys in Santa Monica who I seen playing it a few times. Thats it!! One Pocket is THE game on the west coast since 87 or 88, however the Chicago boys play it a bit stronger.

back to the point TAR has to make $$$, I just dont see a match that would sell well, Danny and JS would probably sell, however thats unlikely. Didnt JS say something about his goat and it shitting off a cliff before he would play Danny again? LOL something funny, I cant see them finishing a match, it might be a MMA/UFC after the first hour, good thing we have Joe Rogan on stand by!!!


good point Cleary

thank care man!!:smile:

 

[Fatboy]

14.1 can be very boring just watching people pocket balls. There is some back and forth, but for the most part it's a runout game that seemingly never ends.

It in theory would never end if they didnt define the ending, at least in one hole the game is over when the balls are all gone

said that just for a laugh, hope you thought it was funny, i did. I'm in a good mood tonight for a change.


take care
eric

 

[Palmerfan]

I am just stating my experiences when it comes to 14.1 with regards to what actually sells. I guess I put the question back to you....if it is so popular how come no one is selling it ?

As to the World/Inter-Galactic/Pan-Universe 14.1 tournament I dont really spend a lot of time thinking about it other than to chuckle at the fact that Charlie has the ability to make four guys playing in his basement into some sort of world championship. My only gripe with the world tournament was people calling it something its really not. But hey if the people who play in it want to call it a world championship then more power to them and if Charlie wants to start his own little hall of fame then rock on. I just don't see it the same way. Different strokes for different folks.

I went to one of the World/Inter-Galactic/Pan-Universe tournaments one year when I was in Jersey for something else. I respect people for putting events together and for the players for getting out and supporting things but I gotta tell you if you walked someone in the tournament I saw and told them it was a World Championship they would of looked at you like you were nuts.

End of the day I would put 14.1 in an all around if it was the right guys. I would even do 14.1 as a whole match if someone wants to sponsor the match and I don't have to take all the risk. I really dont care about 14.1 too much one way or the other I just know what my experience is when it comes to selling it.

I don't think anyone is selling it mainly for the fact that it probably couldn't stand on its own without an All Around unless the right match (players) were a fit so I agree with your point that you need the right guys..but I also feel the same about 1 Pocket, I dont know if you could sell that any better on its own without the 10 Ball or a 9 Ball helping it in an All Around. And I also feel that way (even more so) with 8 Ball. My main point is that the "hardcore" pool fans are the ones paying $ for a PPV and I think the serious pool fan would want to see rotation/1 pocket/14.1 rather then rotation/1 pocket/8 ball. But I could easily be wrong and thats why I posed the question to get a feel.

 

[peteypooldude]

I agree, one solution is if JCIN could contact Randy Goldwater and see if Randy has any interest in doing a JV with JCIN/TAR for the NYC crowd. I havent spoken to Randy in a while, so i'm not sure how active he is right now in pool, he wasn't last time we meet up. However if he is Randy has done lots for 14.1 and pool, just like JCIN has with TAR.

so perhaps they might be able to work something out, otherwise I just dont see it happening. I've been a west coast player for 90% of the time I spent playing pool and I know 2 14.1 players, Max and JS, nobody else ever plays it. take that back there are 2 guys in Santa Monica who I seen playing it a few times. Thats it!! One Pocket is THE game on the west coast since 87 or 88, however the Chicago boys play it a bit stronger.

back to the point TAR has to make $$$, I just dont see a match that would sell well, Danny and JS would probably sell, however thats unlikely. Didnt JS say something about his goat and it shitting off a cliff before he would play Danny again? LOL something funny, I cant see them finishing a match, it might be a MMA/UFC after the first hour, good thing we have Joe Rogan on stand by!!!


good point Cleary

thank care man!!:smile:

I think Joe could choke them out if they got outta line
Maybe get it on paper, crying will be punishable by choke out... Courtesy of Joe Rogan.
That in itself would sell lol

 

[Fatboy]

I don't like playing 14.1 - I don't have the skills or the patience - but I love watching it played at a high level. When I was younger it was the default game in every tournament. The first tournament I ever saw was at the Roosevelt Hotel in NY, sometime in the early 80s. Miz was playing, and many others. I understand the need for paying customers, and I'm sure you're right that 14.1 wouldn't be much of a draw, but I for one would love to see it.

i agree with this as well, my hi-run in 1P in a game not practice was a 12 against JCIN(coincidence he saw it, it was not was a 12 with all the balls open), my high run playing 14.1 is 5 or 6 balls. I might be the only player who has a higher run in 1P than 14.1, of course if i played 14.1 for 3 hours i'd have lots more than 12. point is i never play it.

but I been around pool a long time and know pool pretty good, so yes watching 14.1 played at its highest level is great, the OB is always going in the hole, that's what not to watch . to properly watch hi-level 14.1 watch the CB and shot selection. Mosconi liked to play with his rock in the center of the balls and played a 4 pocket game, Sigel told me he likes to play outside the balls, still primarily a 4 pocket game but a slightly differnt style, and how different players play patterns. Max plays beautiful 14.1 IMO,


however there aint enough people who can appreciate 14.1 for what it is, it aint just pocketing balls, I was just joking in my above post that it goes on forever, last rack srtagity is big as well, how many guys dog it needing 1 or 2 and the next inning the incoming player runs XX & out or even XXX & out. So thats another fun aspect of 14.1.

Someday I might play it, i tried a couple times and it just isnt where my head is at now, still a lovely game

 

[Fatboy]

I think Joe could choke them out if they got outta line
Maybe get it on paper, crying will be punishable by choke out... Courtesy of Joe Rogan.
That in itself would sell lol

Joe is great, and he is getting better and better!!! not only at pool but his comedy-man is he funny. Great guy as well, respect him a ton. And your right, i'd buy it and bet with both hands on Joe taking them both down. Joe was a Tai kon do (spelling error sorry) champion at one time, he is the real deal there too. Some guys are good at everything they do, joe is one of them, i try....

 

[easy-e]

I love straight pool! I play it more than any other game. That being said, I wouldn't pay to watch a stream. It's fun for me to play because it's challenging, but not fun for me to watch. I will buy the other streams though (unless I hate one of the players).

 

[Nick B]

I for one would prefer to see 14.1 over 8 Ball but i know that if I was going to open a restaurant I would sell more burgers than Beef Wellington (one of my favorite meals). Justin and Mark have skin in the game we are just interested. Here is great business fable that says it best.

A Pig and a Chicken are walking down the road.
The Chicken says: "Hey Pig, I was thinking we should open a restaurant!"
Pig replies: "Hmmmmm, maybe, what would we call it?"
The Chicken responds: "How about 'ham-n-eggs'?"
The Pig thinks for a moment and says: "No thanks. I'd be committed, but you'd only be involved!"​

What does JCIN call it....oh ya...Juhadists. The 14.1 Juhadists should pull together say 2K and ask him to tag on a extra day in front or after the event and lets see how it goes. Maybe he'll sell out of Beef Wellington that day and put it on future menus.

 

[TSW]

Not to steal the thunder away from TAR, but I would pre-pay to see an Accu-Stats "Make it Happen" 14.1 event.

While interested, I did not buy the pre-paid packages for the 8 ball or one pocket events.

JMO...

 

[Palmerfan]

I for one would prefer to see 14.1 over 8 Ball but i know that if I was going to open a restaurant I would sell more burgers than Beef Wellington (one of my favorite meals). Justin and Mark have skin in the game we are just interested. Here is great business fable that says it best.

A Pig and a Chicken are walking down the road.
The Chicken says: "Hey Pig, I was thinking we should open a restaurant!"
Pig replies: "Hmmmmm, maybe, what would we call it?"
The Chicken responds: "How about 'ham-n-eggs'?"
The Pig thinks for a moment and says: "No thanks. I'd be committed, but you'd only be involved!"​

What does JCIN call it....oh ya...Juhadists. The 14.1 Juhadists should pull together say 2K and ask him to tag on a extra day in front or after the event and lets see how it goes. Maybe he'll sell out of Beef Wellington that day and put it on future menus.

I don't think the burger crowd pays to watch a pool PPV Stream...even knowing there is a match out there to pay for is reserved for the Beef Wellington crowd..

 

[lfigueroa]

The thing about 14.1 is that it is pretty subtle stuff... maybe like savoring a fine wine or cigar. IOW, you have to be pretty far along to "get" what you're seeing/tasting, what you can expect to see, and what the potential woes in a run might be.

I'm not a big cigar smoker, but on a recent trip to Mexico I got a chance to smoke a couple of Cohiba's, supposedly one of the elite cigars in smokedom and, honestly, other than the price I paid, could not begin to appreciate it's subtleties. I think it's the same for 14.1. You really need to know what to look for and most fans today, not having studied and worked at the game, cannot appreciate it. Hence, no sales

Lou Figueroa

 

[Taco]

i believe it is tougher on a bar table to be honest..

Not sure which game you're referring to but if it's 8-ball I agree. Much more traffic on a bar box than a regulation table.

 

[Nick B]

I don't think the burger crowd pays to watch a pool PPV Stream...even knowing there is a match out there to pay for is reserved for the Beef Wellington crowd..

Hard to say. The further away from the center of the dial you are the more the propensity to be more "committed". 14.1 guys are definitely more passionate because of the need to keep the "kings game" going. I'm not a good judge. I play and would watch everything.

Nick

 

[Curt]

I buy most everything Justin puts out there and I would also buy quality straight pool streams without hesitation.. I'd much rather watch a good 14.1 match than a good 1 hole match. Nothing matches the precision of high caliber 14.1. C'mon Justin, get John & Danny back in the ring!!!

 

[Palmerfan]

I buy most everything Justin puts out there and I would also buy quality straight pool streams without hesitation.. I'd much rather watch a good 14.1 match than a good 1 hole match. Nothing matches the precision of high caliber 14.1. C'mon Justin, get John & Danny back in the ring!!!

Exactly my feeling, wanted to see who else agreed!!

 

[BeiberLvr]

Not to steal the thunder away from TAR, but I would pre-pay to see an Accu-Stats "Make it Happen" 14.1 event.

Agree. I would love a Make It Happen 14.1 event with

Schmidt
Corey
Mika
Niels
Thorsten
Max

 

[Baxter]

Justin might have a better chance painting a house and selling PPV's to watch it dry. I appreciate 14.1, and it's one of the most challenging games to play well, but it's boring as hell to watch.

 

[Nostroke]

I still say 14.1 is enjoyed by the older and more well off crowd which just might make it work.

 

[Baxter]

I still say 14.1 is enjoyed by the older and more well off crowd which just might make it work.

Maybe. Said crowd is also the kind to have lots of extra time to sit around for 4 hours to watch a single match like that. I guess us younger guys would probably rather go play. I watch streams once in a while, but I'd rather go to the hall and find a game honestly. I've had TAR parties though with a couple buddies, and those are always fun, but that's usually 10 ball where we can drink a few beverages and hoot and holler. Don't think that would work too well with 14.1.