'Pendulum' Stroke 'Sweet Spot' ?

[ENGLISH!]

Quite simply I'm asking "you" to define how far must the elbow drop for "YOU" to consider it a piston stroke. You refuse to answer the question.

I am asking the question of "You" not answering it, because I do not know how far the elbow must drop to be a piston stroke according to "YOUR" definition.


Maybe it doesn't matter or any amount of elbow drop makes it a piston, or half piston or 1/64th of a piston. Define it as you do. I am seeking your opinion/your definition. I can't tell you what your definition of a Piston stroke is. Maybe a piston stroke for you is anything that isn't a perfect pendulum? I don't know that's why I am asking you to define it based on your criteria.

Good Morning Rufus,

"It's difficult to answer this seeming easy question isn't it Rick? I"m not going to answer it for you because I asked you and the question remains. If you don't know then just say you don't know."

That's your statement in post #117

If that does not imply that you know the answer & are simply not going to tell me, or us, what the answer is then what does it mean?

You want people to interpret & not take things literally. Well I interpret that to mean that you know the answer & are not going to answer the question for me, or us. You even say that you are not going to answer the question for me. How does that not imply that you know & can answer the question. I was basically asking Larry retorically & then you ask the same question back to me seriously.

I have already stated several times how I would define & possibly 'name' the various strokes.

What does it matter to you what my opinon is regarding what amount of elbow drop would be cause to change the naming of a stroke from 'pendulum' to 'pistion'? Do you want me say 50.001% so we can argue about that?

It has basically been shoved done my throat by instructors & others here on AZB that a 'pendulum' stroke is one where the elbow does NOT move but is pinned in space & the arm swings 'like a pendulum'.

But since you now ask my opinion, I will state it again. If it were up to me, which it certainly is not, I would not use any anatomical body part as the basis for assigning a metaphor to it for the naming of a 'cue stroke'. I don't care what the elbow does. Note that I said, 'cue stroke' as that is what it is. It is a straight cue stick & the tip on the end of it is striking the cue ball. Therefore, in my opinion it should be the path of the straight cue stick & the tip on the end of it that defines what a certain 'cue stroke' should be 'named' if a name is necessary.

So... IF the cue & the cue tip that strikes the ball moves in a straight line 'like a piston' does, then I think it would be intuitive to name that cue stroke a piston stroke.

AND IF the cue & the tip that strikes the ball moves up & down on a path of multiple arcs 'like a pendulum moves on one arc , then it might be intuitive to name it a 'pendulum' stroke, if a more intuitive name such as maybe the 'ocsillating stroke' or the 'wave stroke' was undesirable for some reason.

AND IF there is a blend of straight line & arcing movements of the cue & the tip that strikes the ball, then a blending of the names would seem to be intuitive. If that were the case. I think it would be intuitive to call out that which actually happens first to be the first part of such a name.

So.., if the cue & the tip that strikes the ball moves along a curved arc to the ball & then moves straight through contact then I think 'pendulum/piston stroke' would be intuitive.

AND IF the cue & the tip moves first straight to & then on a curved arc through contact then I think 'piston/pendulum' would be intuitive.

That is if one wanted to maintain 'pendulum' as part of the name & description. Personally, I think "wave" is more intuitive as the cue & tip go through multiple arcs up & down 'like a wave' unless another biomechanical movement is added to the 'pendulum' like swing of the forearm to offset those up & down movements.

I hope that gives you a good idea of my opinion of what I think might be intuitive as to the naming of the different 'cue strokes'.

But then there would be the firm 'tennis' grip 'CJ Wiley Sword Stab' of the former World Champion CJ Wiley where the cue moves straight as it is locked into the channel by the rotary position of the forearm along with the 'tennis grip' which makes the cue & the tip move straight but from more of a pushing, stabbing motion of the arm. But... I don't think CJ likes the stabbing metaphor. So, in deference to CJ, a former World Champion, I guess I would suggest that his stroke just be called 'The Wiley' or 'CJ's Sword'.

So...what do you think of my 'opinions' & why did you want to make me spell them out, AGAIN ? They are merely my opinions & mean nothing until someone comes along to a position of power that can actually make a change. But... how did we get on the subject of defining & nameing 'cue strokes'? All this thread was intended to do was to garner some info to explain randyG's assertion regarding straight tip travel of several inches in a 'pendulum' stroke.

Who actually coined the term 'pendulum' to describe a cue stroke anyway?

Regards & Have a Great Mother's Day,

 

[ENGLISH!]

anyones thoughts on this
regards to type of stroke and wrist action/grip??
or whatever else i am probably missing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chHQEgE6YTQ
going to bed
hope we all get to reach our potential
:thumbup:

Larry,

I missed this post until now.

Did you note that Oyster mentioned that the wrist needed more foward 'tilt' at the pause position. I do not recall anything like that ever being mentoned in my time on AZB.

The cue raised up even with the feathering open of the grip which resulted in a change of 3*. That angle was maintained into contact with the cue ball. How does that happen? . If the cue was swung down on the same arc as would be with a pendulum it shoud have returned to the set position but it did not.It appears to me that the feathering of the grip was not reversed but maitained instead. How much change in tip contact spot on the cue ball would a 3* change make? The point being that the cue ball is being struck lower than the set position & the spin will be different than intended. Now if that is consistent then a subconscious adaptation would eventually come into play. But will that be consistent & should one be made aware of that fact? Yet there seems to be no concern regarding this.

That's what I noticed.

Plus the camera angles were different when the comparisons were made but the lines & angles still seemed to match up. I don't know what that says.

Regards & Have Great Mother's Day,

 

[The Renfro]

ok... I've spent all and I mean all weekend redoing all of my artwork and marketing materials for the tips and racks so I've been a bit distracted but....

The piston is a stroke where the elbow drop is part of the the power source that pushes the tip thru the the cueball... It's a push stroke.. The furthest extreme would be the sword thrust..... Which 99/100 people can understand....

On the Pendulum side you have a pull stroke.... Imagine a rope stretching back behind your grip several feet and you get the feel for what your stroke has to be....

The differences are the power source in the stroke.. which muscle group is playing the game...

This is yet another reason there is no one canned stroke that is ALWAYS best for everyone.....

Next up we can deal with the wrist stroke... I'm pretty strong in that one naturally... Big forearms and all =P... It would be the tiniest of pendulums.... Why pendulum? because I WILL BE PULLING THE CUE AND NOT PUSHING IT........

Chris

 

[bbb]

Larry,

I missed this post until now.

Did you note that Oyster mentioned that the wrist needed more foward 'tilt' at the pause position. I do not recall anything like that ever being mentoned in my time on AZB.

The cue raised up even with the feathering open of the grip which resulted in a change of 3*. That angle was maintained into contact with the cue ball. How does that happen? . If the cue was swung down on the same arc as would be with a pendulum it shoud have returned to the set position but it did not.It appears to me that the feathering of the grip was not reversed but maitained instead. How much change in tip contact spot on the cue ball would a 3* change make? The point being that the cue ball is being struck lower than the set position & the spin will be different than intended. Now if that is consistent then a subconscious adaptation would eventually come into play. But will that be consistent & should one be made aware of that fact? Yet there seems to be no concern regarding this.

That's what I noticed.

Plus the camera angles were different when the comparisons were made but the lines & angles still seemed to match up. I don't know what that says.

Regards & Have Great Mother's Day,

to not get off topic check your pm

 

[ENGLISH!]

ok... I've spent all and I mean all weekend redoing all of my artwork and marketing materials for the tips and racks so I've been a bit distracted but....

The piston is a stroke where the elbow drop is part of the the power source that pushes the tip thru the the cueball... It's a push stroke.. The furthest extreme would be the sword thrust..... Which 99/100 people can understand....

On the Pendulum side you have a pull stroke.... Imagine a rope stretching back behind your grip several feet and you get the feel for what your stroke has to be....

The differences are the power source in the stroke.. which muscle group is playing the game...

This is yet another reason there is no one canned stroke that is ALWAYS best for everyone.....

Next up we can deal with the wrist stroke... I'm pretty strong in that one naturally... Big forearms and all =P... It would be the tiniest of pendulums.... Why pendulum? because I WILL BE PULLING THE CUE AND NOT PUSHING IT........

Chris

Thanks Chris,

If those are the 'official' definitions, would I be correct in saying that one 'could' actually use both of those strokes back & forth in the same game depending where in the motion one actually 'puts the foot to the pedal' so to speak?

Naturally, the set up might inhibit one over the other or actually make one impossible for a particular shot.

Thanks again,

 

[The Renfro]

Thanks Chris,

If those are the 'official' definitions, would I be correct in saying that one 'could' actually use both of those strokes back & forth in the same game depending where in the motion one actually 'puts the foot to the pedal' so to speak?

Naturally, the set up might inhibit one over the other or actually make one impossible for a particular shot.

Thanks again,

Those are my definitions... I don't care if they are official but they get to the point of the matter... I have heard of the pendulum being a swinging motion but that really would only apply to a clock.....

As far as swapping strokes... absolutely... It's all about the power source or which pedal your foot pushes if you wish....

Even your most avid pendulum stroke user will end up using a piston when the table forces them to stretch out to the point where they can only push the cue....

On the other hand piston stroke users would do well to use more of a pendulum when they are jacked up over a ball or the cueball is frozen to the rail... In those situations a shorter accurate stroke is usually a good commodity to own....

Chris

 

[ENGLISH!]

Those are my definitions... I don't care if they are official but they get to the point of the matter... I have heard of the pendulum being a swinging motion but that really would only apply to a clock.....

As far as swapping strokes... absolutely... It's all about the power source or which pedal your foot pushes if you wish....

Even your most avid pendulum stroke user will end up using a piston when the table forces them to stretch out to the point where they can only push the cue....

On the other hand piston stroke users would do well to use more of a pendulum when they are jacked up over a ball or the cueball is frozen to the rail... In those situations a shorter accurate stroke is usually a good commodity to own....

Chris

Thanks Chris,

I think we are on the same page or at least in the same chapter. Verstatilty is usually a good thing.

Best Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

Larry,

I missed this post until now.

Did you note that Oyster mentioned that the wrist needed more foward 'tilt' at the pause position. I do not recall anything like that ever being mentoned in my time on AZB.

The cue raised up even with the feathering open of the grip which resulted in a change of 3*. That angle was maintained into contact with the cue ball. How does that happen? . If the cue was swung down on the same arc as would be with a pendulum it shoud have returned to the set position but it did not.It appears to me that the feathering of the grip was not reversed but maitained instead. How much change in tip contact spot on the cue ball would a 3* change make? The point being that the cue ball is being struck lower than the set position & the spin will be different than intended. Now if that is consistent then a subconscious adaptation would eventually come into play. But will that be consistent & should one be made aware of that fact? Yet there seems to be no concern regarding this.

That's what I noticed.

Plus the camera angles were different when the comparisons were made but the lines & angles still seemed to match up. I don't know what that says.

Regards & Have Great Mother's Day,

I bumped my own post because I don't see this as being off topic & would welcome any discussion regarding these particulars instead of them dying in a couple of PMs.

Regards to all that have participated,

 

[FranCrimi]

Good Morning Rufus,

"It's difficult to answer this seeming easy question isn't it Rick? I"m not going to answer it for you because I asked you and the question remains. If you don't know then just say you don't know."

That's your statement in post #117

If that does not imply that you know the answer & are simply not going to tell me, or us, what the answer is then what does it mean?

You want people to interpret & not take things literally. Well I interpret that to mean that you know the answer & are not going to answer the question for me, or us. You even say that you are not going to answer the question for me. How does that not imply that you know & can answer the question. I was basically asking Larry retorically & then you ask the same question back to me seriously.

I have already stated several times how I would define & possibly 'name' the various strokes.

What does it matter to you what my opinon is regarding what amount of elbow drop would be cause to change the naming of a stroke from 'pendulum' to 'pistion'? Do you want me say 50.001% so we can argue about that?

It has basically been shoved done my throat by instructors & others here on AZB that a 'pendulum' stroke is one where the elbow does NOT move but is pinned in space & the arm swings 'like a pendulum'.

But since you now ask my opinion, I will state it again. If it were up to me, which it certainly is not, I would not use any anatomical body part as the basis for assigning a metaphor to it for the naming of a 'cue stroke'. I don't care what the elbow does. Note that I said, 'cue stroke' as that is what it is. It is a straight cue stick & the tip on the end of it is striking the cue ball. Therefore, in my opinion it should be the path of the straight cue stick & the tip on the end of it that defines what a certain 'cue stroke' should be 'named' if a name is necessary.

So... IF the cue & the cue tip that strikes the ball moves in a straight line 'like a piston' does, then I think it would be intuitive to name that cue stroke a piston stroke.

AND IF the cue & the tip that strikes the ball moves up & down on a path of multiple arcs 'like a pendulum moves on one arc , then it might be intuitive to name it a 'pendulum' stroke, if a more intuitive name such as maybe the 'ocsillating stroke' or the 'wave stroke' was undesirable for some reason.

AND IF there is a blend of straight line & arcing movements of the cue & the tip that strikes the ball, then a blending of the names would seem to be intuitive. If that were the case. I think it would be intuitive to call out that which actually happens first to be the first part of such a name.

So.., if the cue & the tip that strikes the ball moves along a curved arc to the ball & then moves straight through contact then I think 'pendulum/piston stroke' would be intuitive.

AND IF the cue & the tip moves first straight to & then on a curved arc through contact then I think 'piston/pendulum' would be intuitive.

That is if one wanted to maintain 'pendulum' as part of the name & description. Personally, I think "wave" is more intuitive as the cue & tip go through multiple arcs up & down 'like a wave' unless another biomechanical movement is added to the 'pendulum' like swing of the forearm to offset those up & down movements.

I hope that gives you a good idea of my opinion of what I think might be intuitive as to the naming of the different 'cue strokes'.

But then there would be the firm 'tennis' grip 'CJ Wiley Sword Stab' of the former World Champion CJ Wiley where the cue moves straight as it is locked into the channel by the rotary position of the forearm along with the 'tennis grip' which makes the cue & the tip move straight but from more of a pushing, stabbing motion of the arm. But... I don't think CJ likes the stabbing metaphor. So, in deference to CJ, a former World Champion, I guess I would suggest that his stroke just be called 'The Wiley' or 'CJ's Sword'.

So...what do you think of my 'opinions' & why did you want to make me spell them out, AGAIN ? They are merely my opinions & mean nothing until someone comes along to a position of power that can actually make a change. But... how did we get on the subject of defining & nameing 'cue strokes'? All this thread was intended to do was to garner some info to explain randyG's assertion regarding straight tip travel of several inches in a 'pendulum' stroke.

Who actually coined the term 'pendulum' to describe a cue stroke anyway?

Regards & Have a Great Mother's Day,

Rick, I totally agree with you regarding the names of the different strokes. I don't know their origins but I would venture to guess that the names were chosen with whatever knowledge and analysis there was at the time, which was significantly less than there is now.

I also think it's improper to defend inaccurate titles, particularly since we have more scientific information available.

In my opinion, the person you need to suggest name changes to is Bob Jewett. He has always been heavily involved in writing and revising official rules and definitions; and if anyone could get a name officially changed, it would be Bob. But first you will have to convince Bob that it warrants the change. That will be no easy task with Bob. He will want proof.

If you can get a name change through, it doesn't mean that it will be immediately accepted by all. However, seeing it officially in the official rules and records book would definitely have an influence on the majority of players worldwide.

 

[Neil]

Rick, I totally agree with you regarding the names of the different strokes. I don't know their origins but I would venture to guess that the names were chosen with whatever knowledge and analysis there was at the time, which was significantly less than there is now.

I also think it's improper to defend inaccurate titles, particularly since we have more scientific information available.

In my opinion, the person you need to suggest name changes to is Bob Jewett. He has always been heavily involved in writing and revising official rules and definitions; and if anyone could get a name officially changed, it would be Bob. But first you will have to convince Bob that it warrants the change. That will be no easy task with Bob. He will want proof.

If you can get a name change through, it doesn't mean that it will be immediately accepted by all. However, seeing it officially in the official rules and records book would definitely have an influence on the majority of players worldwide.

Yeah, and while your at it, rename the game, it should be pocket billiards, pool makes people want to go swimming. And, balls, well, that's just plain sexist, should call them circles instead. And cues, should be sticks. And pockets, should be holes. And rails should be bumpers. Racks, well, that's just sexist too, should be triangles.

Just wondering how arrogant one has to be to want to rename everything because they are too ignorant to understand what something means?? Is it a car, or an auto, or an automobile? Is it a home, a dwelling, a house, or a living structure?

Really, people, you have nothing better to offer pool than thinking you are actually going to change common names of things that everyone else seems to have no problem understanding? Try offering something real and worthwhile if you want your name to go down in history for something, or else get a smaller ego and a lot more understanding. Fran, you have no problem with someones cue flying up in the air all over the place, why not name that stroke the "eye-poker outer" stroke?

Sitting here arguing that a pendulum stroke is not a true pendulum and trying to nitpick every little nuance of any stroke instead of just spending a little time trying to see the benefits of different strokes is about as nit-picky and useless as one can get. Why not just spend that time actually practicing and actually learning something? Which is what I am going to go do now, so go ahead and "defend" yourselves, even though there is no defense.

Oh yeah, I sure hope I wasn't misunderstood, and have a nice day.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick, I totally agree with you regarding the names of the different strokes. I don't know their origins but I would venture to guess that the names were chosen with whatever knowledge and analysis there was at the time, which was significantly less than there is now.

I also think it's improper to defend inaccurate titles, particularly since we have more scientific information available.

In my opinion, the person you need to suggest name changes to is Bob Jewett. He has always been heavily involved in writing and revising official rules and definitions; and if anyone could get a name officially changed, it would be Bob. But first you will have to convince Bob that it warrants the change. That will be no easy task with Bob. He will want proof.

If you can get a name change through, it doesn't mean that it will be immediately accepted by all. However, seeing it officially in the official rules and records book would definitely have an influence on the majority of players worldwide.

Ms. Crimi,

Thanks, I appreciate your knowledgable input & advice.

Getting an official defiinition or name change has never been my specific goal or intention of this thread or whenever I have tried to discuss the 'pendulum' stroke.

In this thread I was merely trying to get an explanation as to what biomechanical mechanism would allow for the several inches of straight tip travel that randyG asserted was in the pendulum stroke. I just did not see that being the case based on my understanding of it especially with what I thought was the prescribed grip which was a 'craddle' grip.

Thanks to Chris/Renfro & Neil I now see that what can be referred to as a 'pendulum' stroke can be either a good or bad stroke depending on what other biomechanical mechanisms accompany a pendulum like arm swing.

Given those other biomechanical mechanisms required to get the cue to approach a straight line path in a 'pendulum' stroke, I personally do not see it as any more simple or capable of being any more repeatable than any other stroke such as a piston type stroke. In fact I still see it being a bit of a problem as to contolling the tip on the vertical axis even with the other biomechanical mechanisms.

I still think that straight back & forth is a better approach when trying to a put the tip to a specific spot on the cue ball along the vertical axis. I think that is not easy to do with the elbow locked in place.

I just feel that everyone should understand as fully as possible what is being referenced by the term 'pendulum stroke' & that there are issues with it just like any other. I feel that there should be full disclosure regarding exactly what those issues are relative to other strokes so anyone can make an intellegent decision based on all of the objective info at hand as to what direction they may want to take in how they want to approach playing the game to the best of their ability.

Knowledge can be a good thing but a limited & insufficient amount of knowledge can lead one to make an ill informed decision.

As was recently re-enforced to you during your grand jury service the truth, the whole truth, & nothing but the truth is very important.

As to Mr. Jewitt, it is his article comparing the tip travel along the vertical axis in a 'pendulum' stroke vs a piston stroke that made me question randyG's assertion of several inches of straight line tip travel in a 'pendulum' stroke. I am sure that he has at least read some of this thread, but I doubt that he would consider a defintion or name change & as I said that was not my intention or motivation.

To me, it is just easier to get the cue & the tip to move much more in a straight line if I ALLOW my elbow to move down, up, & down again when it wants to do so while I focus on moving the cue & the tip on the end of it straight back & forth. I think that is a better approach than focusng on keeping my elbow fixed which makes the the cue & the tip go through three(3) arcs up & down in opposite directions. As I said to Larry/bbb in his requested PM that the elbow motion is subconscious & requires NO conscious thought as to coordinating when one makes it drop. It just does so when it does to keep the cue & tip moving straight. To me, that is more simple & repeatable & why I believe so many snooker players strive & play with a straight line moving cue. They do it because it is more accurate. Accuracy is vital due to the smaller balls & pockets. If it is more accurate for them why would we not use it in pocket billiards? Allison Fisher did not switch to a rocking cue stick. She kept her straight moving cue line.

Everyone should have & consider all of the variables in both types of strokes when making THEIR own personal choice & not just go along with what might be popular which could result in wasted time if one is better suited to another type stroke as has been relayed to me by several PMs.

Thanks again for the suggestion but I doubt that I would have any influence on Mr. Jewitt changing the definition or the name & that was not my intention but it might be a good thing. I think that that might have a better chance coming from a consortium of knowledgeable instructors like youself that fully understand both type strokes & don't really have a particular affinity to one over the other.

Thanks again. I always respect your unbiased & objective observations & opinions.

Best Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yeah, and while your at it, rename the game, it should be pocket billiards, pool makes people want to go swimming. And, balls, well, that's just plain sexist, should call them circles instead. And cues, should be sticks. And pockets, should be holes. And rails should be bumpers. Racks, well, that's just sexist too, should be triangles.

Neil, Have you noticed that that the female gender actually wears short pants in public & dresses & skirts with hemlines above their ankles. And they hold office in Congress & top Cabinet positions?

Just wondering how arrogant one has to be to want to rename everything because they are too ignorant to understand what something means?? Neil, To whom are you referring, Ms. Crimi or me? I don't think either one of us is so arrogant to think that either one on of us is always right & correct & that it is how & why either one of us says that it is with a closed mind that is not open to discussion or change.. Is it a car, or an auto, or an automobile? You left out transportation vehicle. Is it a home, a dwelling, a house, or a living structure? A dwelling is where ever one dwells & does not require a structure. One can dwell in the dessert of in the jungle etc. A house can be any shelter or refuge. A living struture can be anything erected for the purpose of 'living' in it such as a tent, a mobile home, a house boat. I hope you see my point.

Really, people, you have nothing better to offer pool than thinking you are actually going to change common names of things that everyone else seems to have no problem understanding? Try offering something real and worthwhile if you want your name to go down in history for something, or else get a smaller ego and a lot more understanding. Neil, again, to whom are you referring, me or Ms. Crimi? It must be me because Ms. Crimi has done very much & continues to do much for the game. Her name is already going down in the history of pool or 'pocket billiards'. Are you jealous of her? As for me, I have said that I had & have no intent on trying to change the name of anything & while I have not done very much for the game of pool I have helped & continue to help individuals to play better when ever I can. I am mentoring a talented 23 year old at this time. He is talented but still has much to learn. I'll help him however I can. I have no desire or delusions regarding my name going down in the history of pool or pocket billiards. Do you have that desire or delusion for yourself? Fran, you have no problem with someones cue flying up in the air all over the place, why not name that stroke the "eye-poker outer" stroke? Neil, the shot to which you refer is one that the young gentleman made & was obviuosly trying to force the cue ball where he wanted it to go. Naturally that could be done another way but there was nothing 'wrong' with the way that he did it. It has always been called a 'swoop stroke' when I was growing up. but if you think the 'eye-poker outer' is more accurately descriptive maybe you should lobby for that.

Sitting here arguing that a pendulum stroke is not a true pendulum and trying to nitpick every little nuance of any stroke instead of just spending a little time trying to see the benefits of different strokes is about as nit-picky and useless as one can get. Why not just spend that time actually practicing and actually learning something? Neil, why do you always assume that others are aways looking to learn something for themselves only or needs to learn something for themselves only. There are seperate advantages & disadvantages to different strokes. I feel that both the advantages & disadvantages should be made known & not a one sided picture always be 'painted'. Which is what I am going to go do now, so go ahead and "defend" yourselves, even though there is no defense. Neil, I see that that is plural, so I'll leave it to Ms. Crimi to choose whether or not she wants to respond to what seems to be a chauvinistic & biased tirade.

Oh yeah, I sure hope I wasn't misunderstood, and have a nice day.

Neil,

I don't think your tirade was misunderstood but the real, true, base cause for it may not be known. I doubt if even you truely realize it.

Our civil communication did not last long. I am not 'too ingnorant' to understand anything. I am also intelligent enough to not be blindly led by Pied Pipers without having ALL of the information, the good...and the bad. That way an objective decision can be made by each individual as to how the good & the bad 'balance' out. Everyone should be responsible for the path that they take & not be led by any Pied Pipers.

Since you seem to have a bad habit of making incorrect assumptions, let me state plainly that it is not just me that 'I' am concerned about. Perhaps when you realize that there are some on AZB that actually care about others & are not self absorbed you will not make so many incorrect assumptions & you will go off on fewer tirades.

Do you really think that you can make this type of post & then not receive something back in like kind? That would appear to be an arrogant nature to me.

When I last appologized to you, you said that you do not let me get under your skin. Maybe you can tell us just what is under your skin that makes you so irritable & seemingly grumpy & seemingly almost always negative in your posts.


With Reserved Regards,

 

[Neil]

Neil,

I don't think your tirade was misunderstood but the real, true, base cause for it may not be known. I doubt if even you truely realize it.

Our civil communication did not last long. I am not 'too ingnorant' to understand anything. I am also intelligent enough to not be blindly led by Pied Pipers without having ALL of the information, the good...and the bad. That way an oblective decision can be made by each individual as to how the good & the bad 'balance' out. Everyone should be responsible for the path that they take & not be led by any Pied Pipers.

Since you seem to have a bad habit of making incorrect assumptions, let me state plainly that it is not just me that 'I' am concerned about. Perhaps when you realize that there are some on AZB that actually care about others & are not self absorbed you will not make so many incorrect assumptions & you will go off on fewer tirades.

Do you really think that you can make this type of post & then not receive something back in like kind? That would appear to be an arrogant nature to me.

When I last appologized to you, you said that you do not let me get under your skin. Maybe you can tell us just what is under your skin that makes you so irritable & seemingly grumpy & seemingly almost always negative in your posts.


With Reserved Regards,

No matter how many times or by how many people, you will never understand, Rick. And you won't because you just plain don't want to. Go ahead and keep spreading your manure while trying to convince people it's just perfume and anyone that disagrees with your crap is just a grumpy old man. Can you possibly get anymore two-faced? You've been griping about the pendulum stroke since you first started posting. And yet you say that the other day is the first time you even tried it! When is enough enough Rick? If you don't like it, don't use it. Go use your piston stroke and make sure your cue flies up in the air afterwards like someone else said is just fine to do.

 

[ENGLISH!]

No matter how many times or by how many people, you will never understand, Rick. I understand way much more than You think I do. It seems that I understand what is actually going on better than most. And you won't because you just plain don't want to. Again, you are omniscient & know what I want & don't want. Go ahead and keep spreading your manure while trying to convince people it's just perfume and anyone that disagrees with your crap is just a grumpy old man. No, that is not true. I have had many civil discussions with some that don't totally agree with me or can't quite explain what they believe both in the forum & in PMs without anyone getting 'grumpy' or becoming uncivil. Can you possibly get anymore two-faced? I would like for you to honestly explain about what & how I have ever been 'two-faced'. Another accusation with no support of the accusation. You've been griping about the pendulum stroke since you first started posting. And yet you say that the other day is the first time you even tried it! I never said that the other day was the first time that I have ever either shot with it or tried it. Another distortion &/or misrepresentation by you. It was the first time that I tried your suggestion that the weight support point of the cue transferring from the pinky finger to the ring finger is what allows for some straight line tip travel in the 'pendulum' stroke. So, you are incorrect...again When is enough enough Rick? To what are you referring? I thought this was a discussion forum. I guess when people are in agreement there would be less discussion. But to what are you truely referring? If you don't like it, don't use it. I don't use it as it is mainly presented here on AZB. Go use your piston stroke and make sure your cue flies up in the air afterwards like someone else said is just fine to do. I do use a piston like stroke & my elbow drops when it wants to do so & my tip does come up on certain shots but not because it does so on it's own or through some fault. I either allow it to do so or I make it do so depending on the shot. When it happens it is intentional. You seem to be a very closed minded individual that probably plays very well but with nothing ever special in your play. I may have just figured out why you seem to not like Ms. Crimi. It may not be because she is a female. It may be because she is a former Professional Player & a Master Instructor. You may just be jealous.

Neil,

Another tirade by you.

I have no ill will or feelings toward you. You are who you are. I just don't like it when you resort to name calling insults, etc. when anyone does not agree with you, the way you did upon our first 'discussion'. Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean that they do not understand & does not make them ignorant or anything else. It just means that there is a disagreement. Many times that can be due to a difference in vernacular or whatever. You make incorrect asumptions & proceed based on an error. I think it would do you well to 'listen' more & ask questions before you start to preach. Your knowledge is useless to anyone but yourself if you can not get others to accept what you are trying to pass on to them. That is your problem not theirs.

Naturally all of this is just my take & probably means nothing to you.

I hope you play well when ever you play & I hope you have a great evening & many great tomorrows.

 

[dr9ball]

Good Morning Rufus,

"It's difficult to answer this seeming easy question isn't it Rick? I"m not going to answer it for you because I asked you and the question remains. If you don't know then just say you don't know."

That's your statement in post #117

If that does not imply that you know the answer & are simply not going to tell me, or us, what the answer is then what does it mean?

You want people to interpret & not take things literally. Well I interpret that to mean that you know the answer & are not going to answer the question for me, or us. You even say that you are not going to answer the question for me. How does that not imply that you know & can answer the question. I was basically asking Larry retorically & then you ask the same question back to me seriously.

I have already stated several times how I would define & possibly 'name' the various strokes.

What does it matter to you what my opinon is regarding what amount of elbow drop would be cause to change the naming of a stroke from 'pendulum' to 'pistion'? Do you want me say 50.001% so we can argue about that?

It has basically been shoved done my throat by instructors & others here on AZB that a 'pendulum' stroke is one where the elbow does NOT move but is pinned in space & the arm swings 'like a pendulum'.

But since you now ask my opinion, I will state it again. If it were up to me, which it certainly is not, I would not use any anatomical body part as the basis for assigning a metaphor to it for the naming of a 'cue stroke'. I don't care what the elbow does. Note that I said, 'cue stroke' as that is what it is. It is a straight cue stick & the tip on the end of it is striking the cue ball. Therefore, in my opinion it should be the path of the straight cue stick & the tip on the end of it that defines what a certain 'cue stroke' should be 'named' if a name is necessary.

So... IF the cue & the cue tip that strikes the ball moves in a straight line 'like a piston' does, then I think it would be intuitive to name that cue stroke a piston stroke.

AND IF the cue & the tip that strikes the ball moves up & down on a path of multiple arcs 'like a pendulum moves on one arc , then it might be intuitive to name it a 'pendulum' stroke, if a more intuitive name such as maybe the 'ocsillating stroke' or the 'wave stroke' was undesirable for some reason.

AND IF there is a blend of straight line & arcing movements of the cue & the tip that strikes the ball, then a blending of the names would seem to be intuitive. If that were the case. I think it would be intuitive to call out that which actually happens first to be the first part of such a name.

So.., if the cue & the tip that strikes the ball moves along a curved arc to the ball & then moves straight through contact then I think 'pendulum/piston stroke' would be intuitive.

AND IF the cue & the tip moves first straight to & then on a curved arc through contact then I think 'piston/pendulum' would be intuitive.

That is if one wanted to maintain 'pendulum' as part of the name & description. Personally, I think "wave" is more intuitive as the cue & tip go through multiple arcs up & down 'like a wave' unless another biomechanical movement is added to the 'pendulum' like swing of the forearm to offset those up & down movements.

I hope that gives you a good idea of my opinion of what I think might be intuitive as to the naming of the different 'cue strokes'.

But then there would be the firm 'tennis' grip 'CJ Wiley Sword Stab' of the former World Champion CJ Wiley where the cue moves straight as it is locked into the channel by the rotary position of the forearm along with the 'tennis grip' which makes the cue & the tip move straight but from more of a pushing, stabbing motion of the arm. But... I don't think CJ likes the stabbing metaphor. So, in deference to CJ, a former World Champion, I guess I would suggest that his stroke just be called 'The Wiley' or 'CJ's Sword'.

So...what do you think of my 'opinions' & why did you want to make me spell them out, AGAIN ? They are merely my opinions & mean nothing until someone comes along to a position of power that can actually make a change. But... how did we get on the subject of defining & nameing 'cue strokes'? All this thread was intended to do was to garner some info to explain randyG's assertion regarding straight tip travel of several inches in a 'pendulum' stroke.

Who actually coined the term 'pendulum' to describe a cue stroke anyway?

Regards & Have a Great Mother's Day,

Rick, I don't want to argue with you. I just wanted your opinion. Thank you for that.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I think it is time for this thread to end.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick, I don't want to argue with you. I just wanted your opinion. Thank you for that.

Rufus,

You're more than welcome to my opinions.

I don't want to argue either, with you or anyone else.

If I have misinterpreted your intentions, I applogize.

I was just looking for some answers & welcome any civil discussion on the subject at hand.

Since you & others are teaching the SPF 'pendulum' stroke , I would think that you & others would have a specific answer to support randyG's assertion regarding several inches of straight line tip travel. Yet, no real specific answer came forth from any SPF instructor.

If the video of the strokes supplied by Neil represent 'pendulum' strokes then I can certainly see some good in that type of stroke. However there are other biomechanical mechanisms involved other than a simple swing of the arm 'like a pendulum'. While I still see some problems as in the example video provided by Larry/bbb of Oyster's student increasing the slope of the cue & then maintaining that angle into contact. I understand that if the focus was to keep the cue moving straight & not keeping the elbow fixed that a slight elbow drop on the back swing could easily get that done & then the approach from the straight line away the cue could be returned straight to the ball when the elbow returns to its original position. If then the focus is still to send the cue straight through contact, the elbow might drop a bit to get that done. All that is needed to get that done is to change one's focus to moving the cue straight & not on keeping one's elbow fixed. The elbow movement becomes subconscious & needs no conscious timing & coordination. When that happens there is much more straight line travel than just a couple of inches. The arm swings 'like a pendulum' whether the elbow is fixed or not. The center of the radius, the elbow is just moving in one which allows the cue & tip to move straight. One is a fixed elbow 'pendulum' motion & the other is a scissor elbow 'pendulum' motion similiar to the video where the circular motion cuts out a square.

What are your opinons about those thoughts?

Regards,

 

[dr9ball]

Rufus,

If then the focus is still to send the cue straight through contact, the elbow might drop a bit to get that done.

I don't know that the cue has to travel straight through the cueball for several inches with the exception of the point that it strikes the cue ball and for the limited duration that it is in contact with the cue ball.

All that is needed to get that done is to change one's focus to moving the cue straight & not on keeping one's elbow fixed. The elbow movement becomes subconscious & needs no conscious timing & coordination.

With practice many processes become automated much like learning to drive a stick shift transmission. I agree that with practice a stationary elbow or a dropping elbow will become ingrained into ones stroke. Obviously many people play at a very high level with and without an elbow drop.



What is your opinon about those thoughts?

Regards,

After examining my own stroke, when I cradle the cue in my grip the cue rocks on my middle two fingers starting on the front of the middle finger and finishing on the back of the ring finger. This is something that wasn't top of mind for me and required a bit of introspection but was noticeable instantly when I slowed my stroke down and focused on how the cue felt through the stroke.

I have had students who were not willing to rebuild their stroke to a pendulum stroke (defined for their purposes as a stationary elbow). Like all things taught, the student will use what they feel works best for them. I still believe the pendulum stroke as taught by SPF instructors is very useful for those players who have trouble hitting the cueball where they want to and for those who are having difficulties with their current stroke. I feel it is a simplified movement with fewer components. That may be because I found it useful to my game. There are students who simply don't give anything new or different the required time to achieve that automation I mentioned earlier. They will take a month to adjust to a new cue they bought but won't devote the same time to changing their stroke stance etc.

 

[ENGLISH!]

After examining my own stroke, when I cradle the cue in my grip the cue rocks on my middle two fingers starting on the front of the middle finger and finishing on the back of the ring finger. This is something that wasn't top of mind for me and required a bit of introspection but was noticeable instantly when I slowed my stroke down and focused on how the cue felt through the stroke.

I have had students who were not willing to rebuild their stroke to a pendulum stroke (defined for their purposes as a stationary elbow). Like all things taught, the student will use what they feel works best for them. I still believe the pendulum stroke as taught by SPF instructors is very useful for those players who have trouble hitting the cueball where they want to and for those who are having difficulties with their current stroke. I feel it is a simplified movement with fewer components. That may be because I found it useful to my game. There are students who simply don't give anything new or different the required time to achieve that automation I mentioned earlier. They will take a month to adjust to a new cue they bought but won't devote the same time to changing their stroke stance etc.

Thanks Rufus,

While I do think that the cue moving straight through the cue ball vs moving through the cue ball on a downward arc as it is in contact with the ball can make a significant difference, especially when trying to hit with top contact, it is of more of a consideration if one can hit the cue ball exactly where on the vertical axis of the cue ball one intends with the cue rocking up & down & the tip doing so as well vs. that of a cue & tip that is moving in a straight line. The straight line movement seems more conducive to me by both my experience & thought process.

You refer to a simplfied movement of fewer moving parts. What good is that if eliminating one moving part results in the cue rocking up & down as well as the tip vs a straight line movement of the cue & tip.

Basically that is what it comes down to. Which yields more straight line movement of the cue & tip & is it worth sacrificing all or almost all of that straight line cue & tip movement to focus on keeping the elbow still vs simply allowing it to move to obtain the more straight line movement of the cue & tip.

You & others say that it is more simple to keep ones elbow fixed in space vs allowing it to drop when it wants to drop so the cue & tip can move in a straight line.

Basically I disagree with that line of thinking & I do not think that sacrificing all or nearly all of the straight line cue & tip movement makes sense when it is simply not that difficult at all to just let one's elbow drop when it wants to in order to keep the cue & tip moving in a straight line.

Focus on moving the cue & tip straight with no conscious thought to one's elbow vs focusing on keeping one's elbow still & the cue & tip does not move nearly as straight if at all.

Allowing the elbow to move takes no conscious thought at all.

So, which one is more simple & which one yields a straighter travel of the cue & tip?

To me, that is the choice to be made. To me they are one & the same.

I know that you probably don't concur given your SPF status.

I quess it may be like Okie/Ken said, I may be beating a dead horse, at least in certain corrals.

Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think it is time for this thread to end.

Why is THAT your first post it the thread?