Massive elbow drop vs pendulum stroke

meharis

meharis

Registered
I've have been looking at the zerox video and I actually quite liked the idea of performing 2000ish strokes in irder to imprive the stroke.
My problem is that essentially I grip the cue way too tight, and moreover I have a massive elbow drop. Lastly, my bridge length is about 1 1/4 diamonds, i.e. way too long. Cutting a long story short, I need to get rid of some real bad habits in order to improve...
So here I am on day two and about 500 strokes further, that I begin to actually feel that I'm straightening my stroke and shortening my bridge length, loosening my grip and staying diwn after the shot. So far, so good.
Now to the elbow drop: reducing it makes me feel real awkward. If my elbow doesn't drop, I get the impression that my stroke "quality" deteriorates big time. It just doesn't feel right, and I can't even put enough backspin on the cue all, to not let it roll when playing across the table....
So is it just me, or does an elbow drop actually help increasing the cueball's spin?
 
meharis said:
I've have been looking at the zerox video and I actually quite liked the idea of performing 2000ish strokes in irder to imprive the stroke.
My problem is that essentially I grip the cue way too tight, and moreover I have a massive elbow drop. Lastly, my bridge length is about 1 1/4 diamonds, i.e. way too long. Cutting a long story short, I need to get rid of some real bad habits in order to improve...
So here I am on day two and about 500 strokes further, that I begin to actually feel that I'm straightening my stroke and shortening my bridge length, loosening my grip and staying diwn after the shot. So far, so good.
Now to the elbow drop: reducing it makes me feel real awkward. If my elbow doesn't drop, I get the impression that my stroke "quality" deteriorates big time. It just doesn't feel right, and I can't even put enough backspin on the cue all, to not let it roll when playing across the table....
So is it just me, or does an elbow drop actually help increasing the cueball's spin?
Click to expand...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with dropping the elbow on the shot stroke as long as it happens after contact with the QB and the stick at finish stays straight or slightly going down to the cloth........not up in the air.

I have all of Zero-X videos and like them very much. Tor is a very good instructor.

The reason you are feeling awkward using the pendulum stroke is because you are not use to it. It is a different style of stroking the QB.

The most important thing to remember is to feel the shot at hand. If you feel that you can make the OB using a pendulum stroke then do it. If you feel that you must follow thru extensively then do that. (dropping the elbow).

In my humble opinion the Pendulum stroke is based on cue stick speed where as using the elbow drop stroke is based on the same cue stick speed using a longer follow thru.

Just my opinion

Have fun :smile:

John
 
meharis said:
So is it just me, or does an elbow drop actually help increasing the cueball's spin?
Click to expand...

No.

But if you feel as though you play better by dropping the elbow, then go for it.

In the past few weeks, I stopped worrying about my elbow. Once I started focusing more on the CB (control), I started playing much better.

I know that my elbow drops on some shots, and on others, it doesn't. My main concern is that I don't stop my tip once it contacts the CB, and just let it come to it's natural finish position.
 
Forget the elbow for now IMO. Work the drills and see where you cue tip finishes (supposed to be near the cloth in this case).

If you lighten that grip and reduce the tension in your arm and shoulder, guess what? Simply moving your hand back and forth "straight" creates the perfect elbow work anyway... with the elbow a hinge and the lower arm hanging down with gravity.
 
meharis said:
I've have been looking at the zerox video and I actually quite liked the idea of performing 2000ish strokes in irder to imprive the stroke.
My problem is that essentially I grip the cue way too tight, and moreover I have a massive elbow drop. Lastly, my bridge length is about 1 1/4 diamonds, i.e. way too long. Cutting a long story short, I need to get rid of some real bad habits in order to improve...
So here I am on day two and about 500 strokes further, that I begin to actually feel that I'm straightening my stroke and shortening my bridge length, loosening my grip and staying diwn after the shot. So far, so good.
Now to the elbow drop: reducing it makes me feel real awkward. If my elbow doesn't drop, I get the impression that my stroke "quality" deteriorates big time. It just doesn't feel right, and I can't even put enough backspin on the cue all, to not let it roll when playing across the table....
So is it just me, or does an elbow drop actually help increasing the cueball's spin?
Click to expand...

Your last line is a very interesting question because an elbow drop prior to contact can affect two things, one: the angle of attack, and two: (my theory) stroke velocity and acceleration.

Testing this theory would be difficult because all of the possible variables attached to such an experiment. Sometimes we can feel something before we can actually prove it. Keep thinking about it and experimenting with it. You may be on to something.
 
Last edited:
BilliardsAbout said:
Forget the elbow for now IMO. Work the drills and see where you cue tip finishes (supposed to be near the cloth in this case).

If you lighten that grip and reduce the tension in your arm and shoulder, guess what? Simply moving your hand back and forth "straight" creates the perfect elbow work anyway... with the elbow a hinge and the lower arm hanging down with gravity.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's so perfectly true! I'm giving up to try "not" to move my elbow, it feels too much like a real obstacle. Moving back and forth straight, and finishing by touching the felt whilst keeping the head down, does indeed straighten the stroke.

Now coming to my last question I have some food for thought: The speed of the cue ball is determined by the impulse of the cue.
In physics this would amount to
p=m*v
m being the mass and v the velocity of the cue.
Velocity makes perfect sense, since the faster the cue, the faster the cue ball will be.
So what about the mass?
I'm suggesting that the mass of the cue depends on the type of stroke.
Sounds strange, I admit, but consider in a first example a perfect pendulum stroke, with a good player holding the cue very loosely. The mass in the above equation will be just that if the cue.
Now consider a second (poor) stroke with a tight grip and an elbow drop. The latter implies that at the point of contact, the elbow will be dropping in a motion in the direction of the stroke. IMO this means that a part of the arm's weight is firmly connected to the cue, thus increasing the mass in the above equation.
Does that make sense ?
 
meharis said:
Yes, that's so perfectly true! I'm giving up to try "not" to move my elbow, it feels too much like a real obstacle. Moving back and forth straight, and finishing by touching the felt whilst keeping the head down, does indeed straighten the stroke.

Now coming to my last question I have some food for thought: The speed of the cue ball is determined by the impulse of the cue.
In physics this would amount to
p=m*v
m being the mass and v the velocity of the cue.
Velocity makes perfect sense, since the faster the cue, the faster the cue ball will be.
So what about the mass?
I'm suggesting that the mass of the cue depends on the type of stroke.
Sounds strange, I admit, but consider in a first example a perfect pendulum stroke, with a good player holding the cue very loosely. The mass in the above equation will be just that if the cue.
Now consider a second (poor) stroke with a tight grip and an elbow drop. The latter implies that at the point of contact, the elbow will be dropping in a motion in the direction of the stroke. IMO this means that a part of the arm's weight is firmly connected to the cue, thus increasing the mass in the above equation.
Does that make sense ?
Click to expand...



What would make sense is if you found an SPF Instructor and took a lesson before it's too late.....whewwwww.

randyg
 
meharis said:
... My problem is that essentially I grip the cue way too tight, and moreover I have a massive elbow drop. Lastly, my bridge length is about 1 1/4 diamonds, i.e. way too long. ...
Click to expand...
It would be good to have some more info before making suggestions. I'm curious about your current level of play. On a full-sized table, if you put an object ball on the spot and take the cue ball in the kitchen (behind the head string), how many spot shots do you make out of 20? If you put the cue ball by a side pocket and an object ball half way to a corner pocket on the same rail, can you make the ball and draw the cue ball back? How far back on a good day?

It would be even better if you could make a video of yourself from the side.

There are lots of ways to force you to a shorter bridge. What have you tried?

As for the elbow drop, try the one-handed drill in this handout: http://sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf
 
The tip often ends up a few inches higher than the top of the ball on my stroke. What is this indicative of and why is this a problem?
 
Pathetic Shark said:
The tip often ends up a few inches higher than the top of the ball on my stroke. What is this indicative of and why is this a problem?
Click to expand...

Tight grip and/or dropped elbow.
The problem probably will only show up under pressure and it is called a mis-cue.

randyg
 
Bob Jewett said:
It would be good to have some more info before making suggestions. I'm curious about your current level of play. On a full-sized table, if you put an object ball on the spot and take the cue ball in the kitchen (behind the head string), how many spot shots do you make out of 20? If you put the cue ball by a side pocket and an object ball half way to a corner pocket on the same rail, can you make the ball and draw the cue ball back? How far back on a good day?

It would be even better if you could make a video of yourself from the side.

There are lots of ways to force you to a shorter bridge. What have you tried?

As for the elbow drop, try the one-handed drill in this handout: http://sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf
Click to expand...

Ok so out of 20 I made twelve, and about the other shot I'm not really sure what mean, so I tried this shot:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1370598270.688259.jpg The cue ball's on the string and the object ball by a side pocket and pocketed in the far corner in a direct line. With a good hit I can manage to come to the second rail at the most.
Is there any way to post a video other than youtube?
 
Ok so out of 20 I made twelve. My pockets are real tight, I can't fit to ball next to each other.
About the other shot I wasn't sure what you exactly meant, so I put the cue ball on the head string and an object ball next to the side pocket. I pocketed the ball in a straight line into the corner pocket and drew the cue ball back. On a good day I make the cue ball travel back to the short rail and up to the far rail. I've video on my Iphone but can't really find a way to share it. Is there an app that can do this?
 
So out of the 20 I made 12, my pockets are very tight though - 2 balls won't fit next to each other.
About the other shot: I wasn't really sure what you meant, so I put an object ball next to middle pocket and the cueball on the head string in a straight line towards the far corner pocket. I can draw the cueball to the short far rail max, i.e. 10 diamonds. I gave a video on my Iphone, but can't find a file sharing app that will create a link to the file. Can anyone tell me an easy way to share a video?
 
meharis said:
So out of the 20 I made 12, my pockets are very tight though - 2 balls won't fit next to each other.
About the other shot: I wasn't really sure what you meant, so I put an object ball next to middle pocket and the cueball on the head string in a straight line towards the far corner pocket. I can draw the cueball to the short far rail max, i.e. 10 diamonds. I gave a video on my Iphone, but can't find a file sharing app that will create a link to the file. Can anyone tell me an easy way to share a video?
Click to expand...

Use your phone to create a Youtube account, then upload it directly from your phone. Simples.
 
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