Could you be a pro player?

This is the main problem with pool... Every league player in the world thinks that if they quit their job and did nothing but play for 2 years they could be someone... That kills the fanbase because they cannot appreciate the fact that being true pro speed is out of their reach.....

I watch baseball now that I am over 40 and I look back and think what if... I destroyed my shoulder as a junior when I was throwing 88 at 155lbs and was being recruited... I know the window closed because I got hurt but it also closed because I got old......

In pool we have the Parica, Earl and Efren so unlike Neil, most moroons think they can still make it after their prime...

John Barton has zero chance... Neil has zero chance..... Matter of fact anyone who even hinted that they thought they did... has a zero chance...

Could you play pro speed?? Could you cash? Could you play world class??

Real simple... World class in a race to 11 would be 8 errors or less in the match... Somewhere in the 920+ range of the TPA numbers....

Pro speed is easy because there are no pros... Cashing not so bad because there is no sanctioning body so with a good draw I could cash NOW... With seedings and real pros no shot........

World class??? Get a grip and hit Accu-Stats up and look at the TPA... As far as I know the only player I have ever met that could tell me what he shot was Ralf Souquet.... Now he IS world class..... The rest of you need to step off the pipe......

Talent plus 1... Drive plus 1.... Under 21 plus 1.... -10000 if you don't have the pros in your back yard teaching you every day.... If you do.... Now you have a shot......

Chris

I'm basing what I say off of what I have done in the past. For me, and I'm sure every single one of the pros, after a certain point it's mainly mental attitude. At the 2004 Glass City Open, I won my first match 10-0. Opponent got to the table twice, and missed both times. Next match I played Keith McCready. I lost 10-8 in 4 innings.

For that tournament, I practiced correctly for two weeks prior. Do I believe that if I took what I now know and applied it HARD for two years that I could compete with the pros? Yes. Could I be a top pro? Not likely. That takes a little something extra that only a very few have. But, again, we aren't talking about being the best in the world, just being a pro level player.

Far too many of you make it out that playing pool at a high level is tantamount to being a god, and is totally unattainable for anyone but them. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
 
Far too many of you make it out that playing pool at a high level is tantamount to being a god, and is totally unattainable for anyone but them. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I have a tendency to agree with you on this point.
JoeyA
 
...
I can tell you for a fact that there are people in this thread who would have bet their house, cars and kids that NO ONE could go from zero to running 7 packs in 2.5 years, especially without a pro to guide them personally.

Like who?
 
I don't know if every league player thinks that. Maybe they do. I know that when I spend any amount of time really dedicated to practice, arm falling off sore from stroke drills type stuff then I get better, much better, quickly.

Obviously you are way more familiar with the AccuStats ratings than I am but IIRC top level pros should be shooting in the high 800s to low 900s most of the time, one tier lower is low 800s and so on from there.

My internet sucks right now and I can't search it so I will amend this point later. Every time one of these discussions comes up then it almost always morphs into "you can't hope to be as good as SVB in two years so quit dreaming". The original question was can you reach pro level in two years of daily practice.

My answer is based on the starting point. You say getting to the 900s means less than 8 mistakes in a race to 11. Ok. Let's say right now I am twice as bad making 16 mistakes in a race to 11. What if I only was able to get to ten mistakes in a race to 11?

What specifically do you think would hold me back from achieving that assuming I was able to have no other responsibilities and had the freedom to train and the access to high level pros and coaches, which I do have access to?

John there are always exceptions but the window of being able to do this for most of us is closed by the time we hit 30.... Pool really is a young mans game and the older pros that we see playing world class speed were doing it at very young ages and managed to not fall off a whole lot over the decades....

I was not attempting to knock you or Neil and I definitely wasn't trying to compare you guys with the average league players around here who I constantly have telling me "the only difference between those guys and me is I have a job and can't play 8hours a day every day".....

I'm in my 40s now and the biggest hurdle for me would be my physical conditioning and my ability to concentrate and hold up for a full week of a tournament.... I might be able to shoot in the low 900s for a match or 2 after 2 years of hard dedication but I don't think I could keep up that level for the duration.....

Maybe 2 years of pool focus coupled with a vigorous health and fitness regime... That might buy me a season or 2 in the sun.. I still don't like the odds...

Pool is becoming a young mans game again... All you have to do is go to one of the big tournaments and look at the firepower we have from the 30 and under crowd.... Hell Alex is getting long in the tooth at 35..... Youth is wasted on the young.....

I don't think any of the pros are gods... I know a whole lot of them so there is no illusion there.... Here is what I think you need... Talent, Desire, Drive, Focus, Strong work ethics, Stamina, Good eyesight, and Health.... Even if you have those things you will also have to have pro speed players around you to match up and learn from or you must be seasoned in tournament play against them.....

So lets say no local pros... How many years will that add if you stay home except for lets say Derby, Tunica, CSI Vegas events, Us Open 9Ball and the 2 turning stones? A lifetime??? Most of the pros are playing and matching up with other pros almost daily... 2 years of buckled down practice won't hold up to that type of forging under the high heat... At least not in my opinion.....

So I will have to add a change of address to my list of things I need todo to get ready for the show in 2 years... Others will be miles ahead of me in the same time period if I don't =)

Chris
 
I'm basing what I say off of what I have done in the past. For me, and I'm sure every single one of the pros, after a certain point it's mainly mental attitude. At the 2004 Glass City Open, I won my first match 10-0. Opponent got to the table twice, and missed both times. Next match I played Keith McCready. I lost 10-8 in 4 innings.

For that tournament, I practiced correctly for two weeks prior. Do I believe that if I took what I now know and applied it HARD for two years that I could compete with the pros? Yes. Could I be a top pro? Not likely. That takes a little something extra that only a very few have. But, again, we aren't talking about being the best in the world, just being a pro level player.

Far too many of you make it out that playing pool at a high level is tantamount to being a god, and is totally unattainable for anyone but them. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

This is correct.

I think pro speed is easier to comprehend once you become a strong A player or better. When I was a C player, A speed seemed impossible to attain. Once I hit B speed, it brought the A players down to Earth a bit and I started beating them, and beating them, and beating them until I have completely surpassed your average A and am taking out lower level pros with regularity (and the occasional world class player).

I consider myself to be a legitimate threat to anybody I play and cannot fathom why anybody would dismiss a strong A or shortstop's chances of playing pro speed if they really wanted to attain it. Pool is honestly not that difficult. Becoming a great player doesn't take supernatural talent or extreme physical prowess, it takes complete dedication and drive to become the best despite the odds.
 
Last edited:
Most people would have zero chance. Especially people that have already been around pool and playing for years.
They're not gonna get much better regardless how many balls they hit.

I'd rather take a group of 10 people that have never hit a ball. At least there you may come up with 1 or 2 with with enough talent.
 
John there are always exceptions but the window of being able to do this for most of us is closed by the time we hit 30.... Pool really is a young mans game and the older pros that we see playing world class speed were doing it at very young ages and managed to not fall off a whole lot over the decades....

I was not attempting to knock you or Neil and I definitely wasn't trying to compare you guys with the average league players around here who I constantly have telling me "the only difference between those guys and me is I have a job and can't play 8hours a day every day".....

I'm in my 40s now and the biggest hurdle for me would be my physical conditioning and my ability to concentrate and hold up for a full week of a tournament.... I might be able to shoot in the low 900s for a match or 2 after 2 years of hard dedication but I don't think I could keep up that level for the duration.....

Maybe 2 years of pool focus coupled with a vigorous health and fitness regime... That might buy me a season or 2 in the sun.. I still don't like the odds...

Pool is becoming a young mans game again... All you have to do is go to one of the big tournaments and look at the firepower we have from the 30 and under crowd.... Hell Alex is getting long in the tooth at 35..... Youth is wasted on the young.....

I don't think any of the pros are gods... I know a whole lot of them so there is no illusion there.... Here is what I think you need... Talent, Desire, Drive, Focus, Strong work ethics, Stamina, Good eyesight, and Health.... Even if you have those things you will also have to have pro speed players around you to match up and learn from or you must be seasoned in tournament play against them.....

So lets say no local pros... How many years will that add if you stay home except for lets say Derby, Tunica, CSI Vegas events, Us Open 9Ball and the 2 turning stones? A lifetime??? Most of the pros are playing and matching up with other pros almost daily... 2 years of buckled down practice won't hold up to that type of forging under the high heat... At least not in my opinion.....

So I will have to add a change of address to my list of things I need todo to get ready for the show in 2 years... Others will be miles ahead of me in the same time period if I don't =)

Chris

It's all good I know where you are coming from which is why in my first reply in this thread I qualified it by saying if I could physically handle it. I can't physically handle it, playing for a couple hours intensely kills my back. Playing all day incapacitates me for days.

However I feel that I, or you, certainly Neil, Gerry Williams, Stan for example could shoot consistently at a low pro level with two years of really dedicated training based on where we are starting from. Ok it might take me a little longer since I am not as good as you guys are now.

Tonight I was at the pool room when I read your initial post. I was playing a decent enough guy but I decided to try and turn on the juice and see how many mistakes I would make in the games we played, we were playing nine ball. In the first game I missed makeable shots 7 times, I was chuckling at this.

Then for the next ten games I either ran out or played safe then ran out. I was playing two guys winner stays on the table and other than breaking dry a few times they had NO CHANCE and were practically bowing to me as I left. I hit a real nice gear and played above my head for 45 minutes. Point being that if I can do this while barely playing, with a bad back, and in casual play, what could I do with some serious dedication?

I just don't see how anyone who isn't mentally and physically unable would not get a lot better if they had the freedom to pursue it and the desire/discipline to work at it.

I think that a lot of people simply have the wrong idea about all this. They think that pool players are born and not made. I have to say it's a pretty freaking cruel joke from nature or god or whatever to condemn someone to a life of playing pool for their supper given that historically it has never been either a very glamourous nor a lucrative profession, even in its heyday.

I think that pool has a VERY LOW barrier to entry. The hardest part is finding the time and who has time? Low income kids whose parents don't have them singed up to every activity under the sun have time. Who gets encouraged if they show interest and some respect for the game? Kids do. Who wants to see kids master an adult game? Adults do. So it's only natural that a lot of kids start pool in their teens and progress rapidly and become the shortstops and road players and pros. A lot of people who didn't have the time to pursue pool as a carreer, out of circumstance, fortune and some good sense, tend to live their pool dreams vicariously through those kids that they can "groom" for pool greatness.

The reason you don't see a lot of adults taking up pool later in life and investing the time to get to world class is the same reason adults don't do the same for a lot of things, they simply don't have the time. But there is no physical or mental reason why they can't if they want to.

Ok, there actually IS a physical reason. The brain produces a chemical called myelin that coats neurons and acts as a sort of fiber optic shield for the electricity that passes through the brain when doing stuff. Younger people produce more myelin and the more a person practices deeply the stronger and thicker the myelin coating is meaning that the electricity flows faster. Thus, if for example one has to look at the table and figure out the right pattern then for someone whose myelin is already built up strongly from doing that type of thinking they will snap to the right pattern and go to the execution stage very very quickly. But if one has a "slower" brain because of less myelin then they probably will not see the right pattern as clearly and might have a touch of doubt in the execution phase. That's the theory anyway.

So THAT is put out there as reason why it's much harder to get to world class if starting later in life. But it's only harder, not impossible.
 
please tell me-

It's all good I know where you are coming from which is why in my first reply in this thread I qualified it by saying if I could physically handle it. I can't physically handle it, playing for a couple hours intensely kills my back. Playing all day incapacitates me for days.

However I feel that I, or you, certainly Neil, Gerry Williams, Stan for example could shoot consistently at a low pro level with two years of really dedicated training based on where we are starting from. Ok it might take me a little longer since I am not as good as you guys are now.

Tonight I was at the pool room when I read your initial post. I was playing a decent enough guy but I decided to try and turn on the juice and see how many mistakes I would make in the games we played, we were playing nine ball. In the first game I missed makeable shots 7 times, I was chuckling at this.

Then for the next ten games I either ran out or played safe then ran out. I was playing two guys winner stays on the table and other than breaking dry a few times they had NO CHANCE and were practically bowing to me as I left. I hit a real nice gear and played above my head for 45 minutes. Point being that if I can do this while barely playing, with a bad back, and in casual play, what could I do with some serious dedication?

I just don't see how anyone who isn't mentally and physically unable would not get a lot better if they had the freedom to pursue it and the desire/discipline to work at it.

I think that a lot of people simply have the wrong idea about all this. They think that pool players are born and not made. I have to say it's a pretty freaking cruel joke from nature or god or whatever to condemn someone to a life of playing pool for their supper given that historically it has never been either a very glamourous nor a lucrative profession, even in its heyday.

I think that pool has a VERY LOW barrier to entry. The hardest part is finding the time and who has time? Low income kids whose parents don't have them singed up to every activity under the sun have time. Who gets encouraged if they show interest and some respect for the game? Kids do. Who wants to see kids master an adult game? Adults do. So it's only natural that a lot of kids start pool in their teens and progress rapidly and become the shortstops and road players and pros. A lot of people who didn't have the time to pursue pool as a carreer, out of circumstance, fortune and some good sense, tend to live their pool dreams vicariously through those kids that they can "groom" for pool greatness.

The reason you don't see a lot of adults taking up pool later in life and investing the time to get to world class is the same reason adults don't do the same for a lot of things, they simply don't have the time. But there is no physical or mental reason why they can't if they want to.

Ok, there actually IS a physical reason. The brain produces a chemical called myelin that coats neurons and acts as a sort of fiber optic shield for the electricity that passes through the brain when doing stuff. Younger people produce more myelin and the more a person practices deeply the stronger and thicker the myelin coating is meaning that the electricity flows faster. Thus, if for example one has to look at the table and figure out the right pattern then for someone whose myelin is already built up strongly from doing that type of thinking they will snap to the right pattern and go to the execution stage very very quickly. But if one has a "slower" brain because of less myelin then they probably will not see the right pattern as clearly and might have a touch of doubt in the execution phase. That's the theory anyway.

So THAT is put out there as reason why it's much harder to get to world class if starting later in life. But it's only harder, not impossible.

____________________________________________________

what truly constutes "a pro"?
playing among them?
we have no official guidelines,
save for the few created by the varied associations over the past 25 yrs.
But no American I know has taken the IPAT test to gauge themselves.
thoughts?
-CP
 
____________________________________________________

what truly constutes "a pro"?
playing among them?
we have no official guidelines,
save for the few created by the varied associations over the past 25 yrs.
But no American I know has taken the IPAT test to gauge themselves.
thoughts?
-CP

TPA predates the IPAT.... Pat Fleming at Accu-Stats came up with it 30 years ago.... Pro speed is around a 900.. World class would be over lets say 925... I think the high in Tunica was a 967 but I am blank on who shot it... Maybe Lee Vann Corteza??

http://www.accu-stats.com/AS-inst.pdf
 
I have only played a handful of times on bar boxes. the 7pack was on a tournament match not apa match. But apa here is played on 9ft tables. Matter of fact I was really surprised that they play apa in vegas and most of the country in 7ft tables. It really makes me wonder how is the skill difference between people of the same handicap that play league on 7ft every week vs the ones that play on 9ft tables.

Even more impressive then. I think the majority of APA is played on bar boxes due to availability. Our Tuesday night team actually plays on 8 footers at a place we found. It's amazing to see some of the 6 and 7's fall apart with just that extra foot and slightly tighter pockets.
 
This is correct.

I think pro speed is easier to comprehend once you become a strong A player or better. When I was a C player, A speed seemed impossible to attain. Once I hit B speed, it brought the A players down to Earth a bit and I started beating them, and beating them, and beating them until I have completely surpassed your average A and am taking out lower level pros with regularity (and the occasional world class player).

I consider myself to be a legitimate threat to anybody I play and cannot fathom why anybody would dismiss a strong A or shortstop's chances of playing pro speed if they really wanted to attain it. Pool is honestly not that difficult. Becoming a great player doesn't take supernatural talent or extreme physical prowess, it takes complete dedication and drive to become the best despite the odds.

I think you would have to be a great player to know what it takes become one. It takes more than dedication and drive, I can tell you that much. I know its only human nature for people to think they can do anything as well as anyone else, but that's a fairy tale, based on equality, which is a myth and really impossible.
 
Not in this lifetime. I'm 42 with a 40+ hour work week and 2 kids.
I'm happy to show signs of a decent B player on occasion.

Koop - C player
 
Any good way to calculate this in a practice routine? I understand in a match it is different but just to benchmark your skill level?

TPA predates the IPAT.... Pat Fleming at Accu-Stats came up with it 30 years ago.... Pro speed is around a 900.. World class would be over lets say 925... I think the high in Tunica was a 967 but I am blank on who shot it... Maybe Lee Vann Corteza??

http://www.accu-stats.com/AS-inst.pdf
 
the "Faint Factor" makes a difference in a players performance.

Most people would have zero chance. Especially people that have already been around pool and playing for years.
They're not gonna get much better regardless how many balls they hit.

I'd rather take a group of 10 people that have never hit a ball. At least there you may come up with 1 or 2 with with enough talent.



I tend to agree with your point, it would be easier to make a champion out of someone that didn't already "think" they knew how to play well.

When we(RoadPlayers) were traveling we never really cared how good the "shortstops" played, we knew there was a factor that they could never admit to.....the "Faint Factor". Ask any seasoned road man and you'll get a smile if you ask if the "Faint Factor" makes a difference in a players performance.

Physically it's possible for anyone{healthy} to play a game at the highest level, on the mental level there are many limitations. One of the limitations is being "too smart" or "too logical," so I"m not saying players that can't reach the championship level are "less than" anyone else.

The fact of the matter is we are all put here on earth for a particular reason and being a champion pool player {thankfully} is not written on many "destiny cards". 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
Can anyone find the chart of what the different Accu-stats ratings are? I can't seem to find it, but recall seeing one in the past.
 
An experiment I performed ...

Interesting thread.

I know I absolutely couldn't hit pro speed in 2 years, no matter the amount of practice time and coaching available. Of course I'm old now.

There was a time I thought this was possible for me becasue I had some talent for the game and was dedicated to becoming a much better player. An opportunity came up as I was between jobs and I had plenty of time and money on my hands to give it a go. I played everyday, at least 4 hours a day, for 10 months. I was surrounded by really good to world-class players. I had plenty of venues at my disposal throughout California and Nevada. At the end of it I was a long ways off from pro level. I could see another year or two wasn't going to make a difference. I'll have to admit, desire started to wane because this hobby I liked so much soon became a job. There were times I looked at going out to play pool as a chore! I'd be at home dreading the idea of going out to find another game. To keep my sanity, I had to give up the idea of being a full-time player - from the get-go I figured it was going to be temporary anyway. All was not lost. It wasn't a total grind. There was plenty of excitement, along with some really good memories. Many lessons were learned about pool, the top players and about myself.

So, do the pros have something special that the rest of don't? I say they do.

I remember I had a similar question brought up by a good regional player over 30 years ago - Are top level pool players born or developed? He believed they were developed. I understand Willie Mosconi thought they were born. Thirty years later and against my own earlier thinking, I'm starting to side with Willie.
 
Back
Top