'Pendulum' Stroke 'Sweet Spot' ?

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Jon...If those "experts" are any good, they will have the communication skills to explain something several ways...one of which will "click" for you. The key is to keep asking until you are clear about the answer! :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

BeiberLvr said:
There are plenty of subjects that experts could explain to me until they're blue in the face, and I still wouldn't understand.

Jon
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WOW. It's finally safe to come back to "ask the instructor" thread :) And this coming from a guy who practically lives in NPR :D
 
Answer to English (when he returns)

I am new to this board, and recently came across and was intrigued by this thread. I particuarly noted the difficulty at answering the question.

My observations are that almost all good (read pro) players play with a piston stroke. The only exception I am aware of is Mike Davis who has a pendulum stroke like no other (it comes from the shoulder with a locked elbow).

Since we humans do not have pistons, only hinges (shoulder, elbow, and wrist), obviously Rick's piston stroke is derived from manipulating two or more of these hinges and levers to move the cue in a straight line for considerable distances. He has said that this is accomplished easily and automatically without thought, and I agree with him (its a mind/body/muscle memory thing).

So, the answer to Ricks question is that the exact same mechanism that produces a piston stroke also provides a "flat spot" at the bottom of a pendulum stroke, if wanted.

I would conclude from this that either there is no flat or level spot (if one is using a true pendulum stroke as Rick is thinking of it (utilizing only the elbow hinge), or if there trully is a flat or level spot (that would be observable by slow motion camera) then the use of a second and maybe a third hinge is necessary.

Whether a stroke utilizing more than just the elbow is still a pendulum stroke is another question, but no doubt it could be accomplished just as thoughtlessly as Ricks piston stroke.

I personally would not advocate a "true" pendulum stroke created by only one hinge, but as to whether one could play well with such a stroke I invite you to look up a video of Mike Davis. He plays well and his tip (and entire stick) move up and down like no one else that I have seen.

As I see it this is the only possible answer to Ricks question.
 
darmoose said:
I am new to this board, and recently came across and was intrigued by this thread. I particuarly noted the difficulty at answering the question.

My observations are that almost all good (read pro) players play with a piston stroke. The only exception I am aware of is Mike Davis who has a pendulum stroke like no other (it comes from the shoulder with a locked elbow).

Since we humans do not have pistons, only hinges (shoulder, elbow, and wrist), obviously Rick's piston stroke is derived from manipulating two or more of these hinges and levers to move the cue in a straight line for considerable distances. He has said that this is accomplished easily and automatically without thought, and I agree with him (its a mind/body/muscle memory thing).

So, the answer to Ricks question is that the exact same mechanism that produces a piston stroke also provides a "flat spot" at the bottom of a pendulum stroke, if wanted.

I would conclude from this that either there is no flat or level spot (if one is using a true pendulum stroke as Rick is thinking of it (utilizing only the elbow hinge), or if there trully is a flat or level spot (that would be observable by slow motion camera) then the use of a second and maybe a third hinge is necessary.

Whether a stroke utilizing more than just the elbow is still a pendulum stroke is another question, but no doubt it could be accomplished just as thoughtlessly as Ricks piston stroke.

I personally would not advocate a "true" pendulum stroke created by only one hinge, but as to whether one could play well with such a stroke I invite you to look up a video of Mike Davis. He plays well and his tip (and entire stick) move up and down like no one else that I have seen.

As I see it this is the only possible answer to Ricks question.
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I,m sure English will appreciate at least one genuine attempt to answer his question.
 
sheffield6 said:
I,m sure English will appreciate at least one genuine attempt to answer his question.
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I'm sure this is THE answer, as the "human bean" physiology can do nothing else but combine movement of several hinges and levers moving in a vertical arc to create a piston stroke or even just a flat spot in a pendulum stroke. There just ain't no other way.

I suspect this is exactly the answer English was looking for, wishing to make the point that a pendulum stroke, per his strict definition of a single arc, cannot produce a flat or level spot at the bottom. So that if one claims to move the cue tip in a level motion for any distance, one has nessesarily added movemrnt of a second and maybe a third hinge to accomplish said movement, and perhaps no longer has a pendulum stroke.

Anybody disagree?
 
I'm sure this is THE answer. The physiology of the "human bean" allows for only the movement of one or more hinges moving a lever in a vertical arc to create either a pendulum stroke, a piston stroke, or any stroke in between. There just ain't no other way.

I'm equally sure that this is exactly the answer English was looking for, wishing to make the point that there ain't no flat or level spot at the bottom of an arc created by one hinge and one lever. So that if one claims to have a flat or level spot at the bottom of their pendulum stroke, one has nessesarily added movement of a second hinge and lever, and maybe even a third. At this point does one have a pendulum stroke (as defined in the original question) or a version of a piston stroke?

Anybody disagree?
 
darmoose said:
I'm sure this is THE answer. The physiology of the "human bean" allows for only the movement of one or more hinges moving a lever in a vertical arc to create either a pendulum stroke, a piston stroke, or any stroke in between. There just ain't no other way.

I'm equally sure that this is exactly the answer English was looking for, wishing to make the point that there ain't no flat or level spot at the bottom of an arc created by one hinge and one lever. So that if one claims to have a flat or level spot at the bottom of their pendulum stroke, one has nessesarily added movement of a second hinge and lever, and maybe even a third. At this point does one have a pendulum stroke (as defined in the original question) or a version of a piston stroke?

Anybody disagree?
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Maybe you should try re-reading this thread.??
 
It's a very long thread Neil. Pls save me the time and tell me what I am missing or misunderstanding?
 
Neil, I'm sorry if I said something to make you think I was kidding you. I certainly didnt mean to, anymore than I meant to display any "attitude" towards you like you are starting to display towards me.

If you can't give me a reason in just a few words as to what you think I am missing, thats ok.

Obviously one of us ain't gettin something?
 
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darmoose said:
... My observations are that almost all good (read pro) players play with a piston stroke. ...
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My observations are very different. Among the pro pool players I've watched carefully, only Loree Jon Jones and Jeremy Jones have piston strokes. Which other notable (easy to find on YouTube) players do you feel have piston strokes?
 
Well, my general recollection of most pros strokes is that they have a more piston like stroke than a pendulum like stroke. Before going any further let me say that I am subscribing to English's definition that a pendulum stroke requires a fixed elbow, and dropping and raising ones elbow is an adjustment that is made to keep the cue as level as possible and provide a more piston like stroke.

Having said that, I have looked at some youtube films and, yes lori jon and jeremy jon have piston strokes, as do ewa mataya, SVB, Duchane, strickland, pelegro to name a few for now.

They all raise and lower their elbow during the stroke to level the cue.

So, what am I missing? What are you seeing?
 
Bob Jewett said:
My observations are very different. Among the pro pool players I've watched carefully, only Loree Jon Jones and Jeremy Jones have piston strokes. Which other notable (easy to find on YouTube) players do you feel have piston strokes?
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Johnny Archer has a pronounced piston stroke on most shots. Here he is with JJ and his stroke looks more piston-like than Jeremy's does, at least to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezE1iGyjsMc

Jasmin Ouschan is another top player who employs a piston stroke to great success. Frame-by-frame viewing reveals that both Ouschan and Archer begin to drop the elbow before contact much of the time. I can find more, but I don't want to spend the time right now. Maybe others will come up with more YT links.
 
Bob Jewett said:
My observations are very different. Among the pro pool players I've watched carefully, only Loree Jon Jones and Jeremy Jones have piston strokes. Which other notable (easy to find on YouTube) players do you feel have piston strokes?
Click to expand...

So it seems we now have numerous examples of pro players with piston strokes, and indeed at least some of us think most pro players play with a piston like stroke in order to keep the cue as level as possible.

Perhaps Bob could show us or name some pro players that have a pendulum stroke that we might look up on you tube to see what he is talking about or what we are missing.

As I said earlier, Mike Davis is the only player that i have observed that has a pendulum, albeit his stroke is hinged from the shoulder and has a locked elbow.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Johnny Archer has a pronounced piston stroke on most shots. Here he is with JJ and his stroke looks more piston-like than Jeremy's does, at least to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezE1iGyjsMc
...
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This particular video is lousy for analyzing stroke. The camera man needs a tripod. He rarely zooms out far enough to see what the elbow is doing.

The key thing to look for on a piston stroke is that the elbow drops as the hand comes back on the backstroke. I don't see that in Archer. He does drop his elbow on the follow through, but that is not what constitutes a piston stroke.
 
darmoose said:
So it seems we now have numerous examples of pro players with piston strokes, and indeed at least some of us think most pro players play with a piston like stroke in order to keep the cue as level as possible.

Perhaps Bob could show us or name some pro players that have a pendulum stroke that we might look up on you tube to see what he is talking about or what we are missing.

As I said earlier, Mike Davis is the only player that i have observed that has a pendulum, albeit his stroke is hinged from the shoulder and has a locked elbow.
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Mike Davis is not a pendulum stroke lol, it's just hmmm mike Davis stroke? Lol

Thorsten Hohmann and Niels Feijen come to mind as good examples of pendulum strokes.

I think there are tons of people talking about pendulum stroke and piston stroke but no one has a real clear definition of the two strokes. I do see many pros putting different strokes on different shots. It's like the whole wrist movement on different shots as well.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The key thing to look for on a piston stroke is that the elbow drops as the hand comes back on the backstroke. I don't see that in Archer. He does drop his elbow on the follow through, but that is not what constitutes a piston stroke.
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If the key thing to look for on a piston stroke is that the elbow drops on the "backswing", I'm LOST. I don't believe I've ever seen that happen. An elbow drop on the FORWARD stroke (which has the effect of lowering the hand, and thus the cue, keeping the tip moving forward on a level track) is a deviation from a pendulum stroke, as defined by English in his very early posts. This elbow drop is exactly the answer English was probing for, because that movement creates a piston stroke.

English's assertion was (without saying it outright), that it is impossible to create
a level track for the tip, for any distance, with a purely pendulum stroke which
was defined as having a fixed elbow hinge.

I believe English was simply asserting that anyone who claimed a pendulum stroke with a level track for the tip for any distance, does not have a pendulum stroke, but a piston stroke whether they admitted it or not, and obviously the advocates of the pendulum were'nt going to admit that.
 
A matter of Definition

Bob Jewett said:
The key thing to look for on a piston stroke is that the elbow drops as the hand comes back on the backstroke. I don't see that in Archer. He does drop his elbow on the follow through, but that is not what constitutes a piston stroke.
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This statement is at the core of this entire discussion. I have looked at your charts and explanation of the pemdulum stroke in an earlier thread, where you depict a pendulum stroke with the rear of the cue and necessarily the tip rising and falling as the shooter moves thru the backstroke and on thru the forward stroke. ayou make no mention of a flattening or leveling out so that the cue tip travels in a straight line for any distance. In fact you state that it does not, but only returns the tip to the exact spot on the CB where it started.

Now you say that the elbow dropping during the forward stroke is apparently a component of a pendulum stroke rather than a piston stroke???

This was exactly English's point, that a true pendulum stroke has no flat or level travel of any distance, just a single point. Anyone claiming to have a sweet spot, level travel, etc, does not have a pendulum stroke, but a pistonstroke.

I don't know of a pro that drops the elbow on the backswing, but almost all that I have viewed drop the elbow on the forward stroke to maintain some distance of straight or level travel for the tip. This is a piston stroke per English's definition which I agree with, as does your charts.

Can you name a pro that drops his elbow on the backswing? Mike Davis does not, he actually raises his elbow on the backswing due to swinging from the shoulder witha locked elbow.
 
Back from Mr. Wilson’s ‘Kabong’

It was from here that Mr. Wilson hit me with ‘El Kabong’, so here is where I will make my return post.

Mr. Wilson, I apologize for my short comings, but I was provoked by the continuation of the ongoing personal insults from a certain individual. I sincerely hope that I never again give you cause to suspend nor ban me from AZB. My only intention for ever remaining on AZB after buying two (2) LD shafts is to attempt to help those that are trying to improve their game if & when I can. I thought that defining the cue path of a ‘pendulum’ stroke might be a form of helping those that might be considering it over a more straight line piston type stroke.

However, you have made your ‘point’ quite clear. I am not on even footing & it seems that on occasion my attempts to be helpful to those trying to improve have not been conducive to a certain symbiotic relationship that you & AZB demand remain in harmony. However, AZB is not & I doubt will ever be a Utopia. Regardless, I will certainly try my best to get in tune with my ‘turn the other cheek’ Christian side. I can only hope that I will be able to keep my Christian side compatible with my affinity for the truth & hopefully can divest myself of situations where they are not compatible. In spite of what some think, I never intend to cause disharmony. However some subjects will inevitably come to a bit of contention whenever there is a disagreement between two (2) or more parties. I do & always have hoped that those contentions can remain of a civil nature. Civility was the subject of my only other thread in this sub-forum. I will certainly do my best to endeavor to abide by your rule of harmony. I can only hope that my affinity for the whole truth will allow me to do so.

Sincerely,
 
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