Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

rexus31 said:
Chris: Russ' table is listed as "rexus31's friend's Brunswick Gold Crown" IMO, I think his table is extremely underrated per this measuring system as it does not take into account speed. One of the reasons why his table is difficult is the speed of the cloth and cushions. Who knows how Donny got the cushions to play that lively and there is a noticeable difference in the speed of the 760 vs 860. Very, very tough table.
Click to expand...

Thanks - agreed, this table is difficult but fair. I would like to see more tables set up like this.

The rating system rates this table as easier than a "normal" table - total failure of the system.
 
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TATE said:
rexus31 said:
TATE said:
Pool Hustler (Russ) needs to get you his measurements. He has a Gold Crown with a tightened up Diamond Pro cut. The pockets are slightly larger than mine, I believe, with a steeper cut angle, but it plays just as tight. It's an amazing table.
Click to expand...
Chris: Russ' table is listed as "rexus31's friend's Brunswick Gold Crown" IMO, I think his table is extremely underrated per this measuring system as it does not take into account speed. One of the reasons why his table is difficult is the speed of the cloth and cushions. Who knows how Donny got the cushions to play that lively and there is a noticeable difference in the speed of the 760 vs 860. Very, very tough table.
Click to expand...
Thanks - agreed, this table is difficult but fair. I would like to see more tables set up like this.

The rating system rates this table as easier than a "normal" table - total failure of the system.
Click to expand...
Thank you guys for bringing this table to my attention, because there was an error in the math. I've corrected it as follows:

Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.05 (tightened up Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)

I think that sounds more reasonable now. rexus31, please check the measurement numbers. I think we had made several edits on this, and I want to make sure it is correct.

The 1.05 TDF sounds more reasonable based on your descriptions (although, depending on the condition of the facings and cushion cloth, it might play even tougher than this number implies, and it sounds like the cloth speed and rail liveliness are also factors).

Thanks,
Dave

Here is the latest updated list:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:PSF -- mouth-throat_difference:PAF -- shelf_depth:PLF -- TDF (table description)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 1 1/4":1.17 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.08 (modified Valley "bar box")
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143 deg:1.08 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.05 (tightened up Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (A.E. Schmidt)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141 deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (Connelly Kayenta)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly home table)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
dr_dave said:
Thank you guys for bringing this table to my attention, because there was an error in the math. I've corrected it as follows:

Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.05 (tightened up Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)

I think that sounds more reasonable now. rexus31, please check the measurement numbers. I think we had made several edits on this, and I want to make sure it is correct.

The 1.05 TDF sounds more reasonable based on your descriptions (although, depending on the condition of the facings and cushion cloth, it might play even tougher than this number implies, and it sounds like the cloth speed and rail liveliness are also factors).

Thanks,
Dave

Here is the latest updated list:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:PSF -- mouth-throat_difference:PAF -- shelf_depth:PLF -- TDF (table description)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 1 1/4":1.17 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.08 (modified Valley "bar box")
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143 deg:1.08 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.05 (tightened up Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (A.E. Schmidt)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141 deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (Connelly Kayenta)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly home table)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
Click to expand...

Your specs are off on poolhustler's GC. Correct specs are below.

Table: 9'
PSF: 4.25"
PAF: 4", .25" difference
PLF: 15/16"
 
rexus31 said:
Your specs are off on poolhustler's GC. Correct specs are below.

Table: 9'
PSF: 4.25"
PAF: 4", .25" difference
PLF: 15/16"
Click to expand...
Thanks for the correction. I've updated the entry again.

Are you sure the shelf is that short? Why is it so different from all of the other Gold Crowns? Was the slate modified? With the measurements you provided, the pockets seem more similar to those on a Valley bar box than they do to a Gold Crown.

Here's the latest:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:PSF -- mouth-throat_difference:PAF -- shelf_depth:PLF -- TDF (table description)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 1 1/4":1.17 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.08 (modified Valley "bar box")
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143 deg:1.08 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (A.E. Schmidt)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141 deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 15/16":0.95 -- 0.95 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (Connelly Kayenta)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly home table)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
Those are the measurements he gave me. The pockets play tight but fair. The overall toughness of the table is attributed to factors not covered by the TDF. IMO, factors such as cloth and cushion speed are equally as important as pocket size. Maybe a better name for this equation is PDF, Pocket Difficulty Factor as it really doesn't take into account the overall difficulty of a table. A good way to measure the speed would be to use a wooden ramp of predetermined height and angle and roll a ball from, say, the headstring and measure the distance the ball bounces off the end rail and affix a value based on that distance.
 
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rexus31 said:
Those are the measurements he gave me.
Click to expand...
Could you check them or have him check them carefully? I think something must be wrong. For convenience, here are the instructions for taking the measurements:

The Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) is based on table size and the three corner-pocket measurements illustrated below. If the cushion is not 2” (5.1cm) thick, measure the throat size 2” (5.1 cm) back from the cushion noses. You can lay down Post-It Notes or masking tape to better define the lines and intersection points to help with the mouth and throat measurements. If you have an angle-measurement device, you can measure the facing angle directly instead of measuring the throat size. The shelf depth should be measured from the pocket mouth line to the slate top lip edge (where the pocket opening first starts).

table_pocket_measurements.jpg

Thanks,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Could you check them or have him check them carefully? I think something must be wrong. For convenience, here are the instructions for taking the measurements:

The Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) is based on table size and the three corner-pocket measurements illustrated below. If the cushion is not 2” (5.1cm) thick, measure the throat size 2” (5.1 cm) back from the cushion noses. You can lay down Post-It Notes or masking tape to better define the lines and intersection points to help with the mouth and throat measurements. If you have an angle-measurement device, you can measure the facing angle directly instead of measuring the throat size. The shelf depth should be measured from the pocket mouth line to the slate top lip edge (where the pocket opening first starts).

table_pocket_measurements.jpg

Thanks,
Dave
Click to expand...

I will take a pick so old school can do his thing with it.
 
rexus31 said:
A good way to measure the speed would be to use a wooden ramp of predetermined height and angle and roll a ball from, say, the headstring and measure the distance the ball bounces off the end rail and affix a value based on that distance.
Click to expand...

Ahh - this old chestnut. :)

I think just stating what cloth you have is ok for the cloth speed reference. (age & cleanliness of cloth will be factors) Humidity / temperature will be a daily variable.

But if u want to do a measurement / test - then the best cloth speed test is this IMO (Bob Jewett's ?) - On a nine foot table, shoot a ball from the first diamond off the head rail. Hit the foot rail and calculate the length of time it takes for the ball to return to the head rail from the foot rail. The ball must be hit in such a way that it returns to the head rail and does not quite touch it.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/Stimpmeter1.htm

Now to reference rail speed performance is a bit harder (the above test measures cloth speed independent of rail factors) - how does one test a rail independent of the bed cloth speed ?

I like this test for overall table speed (bed cloth & cushion speed combined) the "Bank around the table" test.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=321720&page=3

see posts 31 & 34.

So the table speed info/ref. for my table would be "Simonis 860 : 8 rails"

Cheers.
 
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mamics said:
Ahh - this old chestnut. :)

I think just stating what cloth you have is ok for the cloth speed reference. (age & cleanliness of cloth will be factors) Humidity / temperature will be a daily variable.

But if u want to do a measurement / test - then the best cloth speed test is this IMO (Bob Jewett's ?) - On a nine foot table, shoot a ball from the first diamond off the head rail. Hit the foot rail and calculate the length of time it takes for the ball to return to the head rail from the foot rail. The ball must be hit in such a way that it returns to the head rail and does not quite touch it.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/Stimpmeter1.htm

Now to reference rail speed performance is a bit harder (the above test measures cloth speed independent of rail factors) - how does one test a rail independent of the bed cloth speed ?

I like this test for overall table speed (bed cloth & cushion speed combined) the "Bank around the table" test.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=321720&page=3

see posts 31 & 34.

So the table speed info/ref. for my table would be "Simonis 860 : 8 rails"

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Too big of a variable in what you are proposing: the player and their stroke.

A standardized "tool" if you will, to roll the cue ball at effectively the same speed would be more accurate. Humidity and temp would play a factor as those are the conditions the table is in and would be reflected in the speed test I am proposing. Those conditions would reflect the overall difficulty of the table. A table that lives in humid conditions will play accordingly. Let the chips fall where they may.
 
rexus31 said:
Too big of a variable in what you are proposing: the player and their stroke.
Click to expand...

True - I agree - hard to argue with you on that one re: the round the table bank test.

rexus31 said:
A standardized "tool" if you will, to roll the cue ball at effectively the same speed would be more accurate.
Click to expand...

Ahh - ok yes - but what speed ? :)
I think a ball speed equivalent to hitting "with a level cue and firm stroke" is needed to get an appropriate measure of cushion performance ? (slow ball speed may mostly be affected by the bed cloth speed ?)
see point 8 here.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/WPA_Tournament_Table_Equipment_Specifications

It'd be interesting to see data on measured cloth speed (independent of the rails) and then data on some kind of 'slow roll' table / rail test using a ramp. (both tests on the same table) I suspect the major influence of differing results on different tables might be the bed cloth speed more so than differences in rail performance ? (for slow roll speed tests)

Also I think a 'standardized tool' will be problematic for most people to obtain or build etc. I love the idea though. Great in theory, not so easy to put into practice.
Using cues sitting on a table to form the ramp has been unclear / non-standard (lots of variables) from what I have read / seen also.
Cheers.
 
Last edited:
8' Diamond Pro-Am (blue label)

Diamond 8 foot tables are 90x45 so I used TSF = .925. Adjust if needed Dave.

The mouth is 4 3/8" or maybe a hair under so PSF = 1.02

Throat is 3 5/8" for a difference of 3/4" so PAF = 1.02

Shelf depth is 1" so PLF = .95

TDF = .914
 
mamics said:
Ahh - ok yes - but what speed ? :)
I think a ball speed equivalent to hitting "with a level cue and firm stroke" is needed to get an appropriate measure of cushion performance ? (slow ball speed may mostly be affected by the bed cloth speed ?)
see point 8 here.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/WPA_Tournament_Table_Equipment_Specifications

It'd be interesting to see data on measured cloth speed (independent of the rails) and then data on some kind of 'slow roll' table / rail test using a ramp. (both tests on the same table) I suspect the major influence of differing results on different tables might be the bed cloth speed more so than differences in rail performance ? (for slow roll speed tests)

Also I think a 'standardized tool' will be problematic for most people to obtain or build etc. I love the idea though. Great in theory, not so easy to put into practice.
Using cues sitting on a table to form the ramp has been unclear / non-standard (lots of variables) from what I have read / seen also.
Cheers.
Click to expand...

Cloth speed would definitely be a factor. It's possible you could dto a head rail to foot rail roll using a tool I am suggesting to determine cloth speed. Then perform a second test with the aforementioned tool at the middle of the table on the head string and roll the ball into the head rail or side rail and measure how far it banks to determine cushion speed. I recall seeing a "cloth speed tool" on these forums which is where I got the idea from. It was basically a right angle triangle whose length was double its height with a groove routed in the center for the ball to roll down to assure a straight roll. I'll see if I can find that thread.

Edit: Well that was fast. It isn't quite as my memory pictured it but this is what I was speaking to:







Edit 2: I called the number in the pic and ordered one. They refer to it as a Ball Ramp; cost was $19.95 plus shipping. Maybe a few others can purchase one so we can come up with some sort of standardized test to incorporate cloth speed and cushion speed into the TDF.
 
Last edited:
44Runner said:
8' Diamond Pro-Am (blue label)

Diamond 8 foot tables are 90x45 so I used TSF = .925. Adjust if needed Dave.

The mouth is 4 3/8" or maybe a hair under so PSF = 1.02

Throat is 3 5/8" for a difference of 3/4" so PAF = 1.02

Shelf depth is 1" so PLF = .95

TDF = .914
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting and for being accurate with the numbers and math.

Here's the latest:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:PSF -- mouth-throat_difference:PAF -- shelf_depth:PLF -- TDF (table description)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 1 1/4":1.17 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.08 (modified Valley "bar box")
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143 deg:1.08 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (A.E. Schmidt)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141 deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 15/16":0.95 -- 0.95 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.02 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.91 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (8' Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (8' Connelly home table)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82 (7' Brunswick "bar box")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (7' Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
rexus31 said:
Cloth speed would definitely be a factor. It's possible you could dto a head rail to foot rail roll using a tool I am suggesting to determine cloth speed. Then perform a second test with the aforementioned tool at the middle of the table on the head string and roll the ball into the head rail or side rail and measure how far it banks to determine cushion speed. I recall seeing a "cloth speed tool" on these forums which is where I got the idea from. It was basically a right angle triangle whose length was double its height with a groove routed in the center for the ball to roll down to assure a straight roll. I'll see if I can find that thread.

Edit: Well that was fast. It isn't quite as my memory pictured it but this is what I was speaking to:







Edit 2: I called the number in the pic and ordered one. They refer to it as a Ball Ramp; cost was $19.95 plus shipping. Maybe a few others can purchase one so we can come up with some sort of standardized test to incorporate cloth speed and cushion speed into the TDF.
Click to expand...
I look forward to seeing what you guys suggest for the possible table speed factor (TSF). This is a tricky one because it depends on table size, player preference, and the game being played. For example, a 9/10-ball player might prefer a faster cloth and lively cushions, especially on a bigger table. A straight pool player might prefer a slower cloth and less-lively cushions, especially on a smaller table. It seems like most people might find fast and lively conditions more difficult, but those same people might also find a really slow table with dead cushions also very difficult; but again, this judgement might depend on table size and the game being played.

I look forward to seeing what you and others think about this and how the TSF number ranges and percentage values should be assigned.

Dave
 
dr_dave said:
I look forward to seeing what you guys suggest for the possible table speed factor (TSF). This is a tricky one because it depends on table size, player preference, and the game being played. For example, a 9/10-ball player might prefer a faster cloth and lively cushions, especially on a bigger table. A straight pool player might prefer a slower cloth and less-lively cushions, especially on a smaller table. It seems like most people might find fast and lively conditions more difficult, but those same people might also find a really slow table with dead cushions also very difficult; but again, this judgement might depend on table size and the game being played.

I look forward to seeing what you and others think about this and how the TSF number ranges and percentage values should be assigned.

Dave
Click to expand...

I will start testing with this tool on my table, poolhustler's GC and another friend's GC and report my testing methods and results. We can get a consensus on how to value the data and how to adjust for table size as all my testing will be done on 9' tables.

I am of the opinion that faster cloth and livelier cushions make the table play more difficult than the alternative. For example, my table has tighter pockets than poolhustler's GC yet it is popular consensus amongst our friends that his table is more difficult because his cloth is faster (760 vs my 860) and his cushions are the liveliest any of us have played on. We both have the same rubber (Artemis) but his subrails were calibrated in a way which makes the cushions play very lively.

We will see. Once i get the tool and can perform the tests, I will report my findings.
 
Attached is a photo to poolhuster's GC. Old School: Can you please give it the treatment?

 
I measured my table with greater accuracy in mind and came up with these measurements:

Mouth 4 7/8" PSF: .95
Throat 4 1/8" PAF: 1.02
Shelf 1 5/8" PSF: 1.00 and TSF .85

Table is 7 ft. Brunswick "Ranchero"

I get a TDF of .8236 but I'm not certain the factors I'm using are correct. Thanks, Mooneye
 
Mooneye said:
I measured my table with greater accuracy in mind and came up with these measurements:

Mouth 4 7/8" PSF: .95
Throat 4 1/8" PAF: 1.02
Shelf 1 5/8" PSF: 1.00 and TSF .85

Table is 7 ft. Brunswick "Ranchero"

I get a TDF of .8236 but I'm not certain the factors I'm using are correct. Thanks, Mooneye
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting accurate measurements (with good math too). I've updated your table info. Here's the latest:

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_size:PSF -- mouth-throat_difference:PAF -- shelf_depth:PLF -- TDF (table description)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example "B")
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gold Crown)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified Brunswick Gibson)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 1 1/4":1.17 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.08 (modified Valley "bar box")
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143 deg:1.08 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 ("Cobrasized" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.06 (old Brunswick Gold Crown II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03 (A.E. Schmidt)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 141 deg:1.02 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.02 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01 (Gandy Big G)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (WPA spec "standard")
Kelly_Guy -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.98 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 15/16":0.95 -- 0.95 (modified Brunswick Gold Crown, measured by rexus31)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Brunswick Gold Crown home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92 (Brunswick Gold Crown II)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.02 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.91 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Brunswick Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87 (8' Olhausen)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (8' Connelly home table)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.82 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (7' Valley/Dynamo "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
rexus31 said:
Cloth speed would definitely be a factor. It's possible you could dto a head rail to foot rail roll using a tool I am suggesting to determine cloth speed. Then perform a second test with the aforementioned tool at the middle of the table on the head string and roll the ball into the head rail or side rail and measure how far it banks to determine cushion speed. I recall seeing a "cloth speed tool" on these forums which is where I got the idea from. It was basically a right angle triangle whose length was double its height with a groove routed in the center for the ball to roll down to assure a straight roll. I'll see if I can find that thread.

Edit: Well that was fast. It isn't quite as my memory pictured it but this is what I was speaking to:



.





Edit 2: I called the number in the pic and ordered one. They refer to it as a Ball Ramp; cost was $19.95 plus shipping. Maybe a few others can purchase one so we can come up with some sort of standardized test to incorporate cloth speed and cushion speed into the TDF.
Click to expand...
Here's a writeup by Joe W. about making and using a stimpmeter for measuring table speed.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/Stimpmeter1.htm

I'm going to make one (ain't spending $20 for a triangle of wood unless it racks the balls), but in order to have consistency among the data, I'll make it with dimensions I got from the photo you provided. Looks like the ramp is pretty close to 1 5/8" tall x 7 7/8" long (~12º ramp angle), with a 1/2" backer board glued to it. If anybody wants one, just send me a PM and I'll try to make a few extras with some shop scrap, which will be available for the cost of shipping (probably about $5).

I'll have to wait until next week at the earliest to do this, so put your "order" in now if you want one. Just don't "Bill Stroud" me if life gets in the way and I don't get around to it for a while.;)
 
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