Springiness of Diamond rails

[scottjen26]

I know this has been covered before, but I have played yet another frustrating match at a local pool hall and have to vent and confirm some questions.

Pool hall has 16 9’ Diamond tables. All recently recovered and leveled, so they each play fairly consistently compared to each other. All tables are very springy – balls lose almost no speed when hitting the cushion, almost look like they are even accelerating – and because of this very difficult to control the cue ball, safeties, etc., and table banks very short and inconsistently. Also because of the springiness the pockets play even tighter than normal, since any little hit into the cushion sends it farther away and quicker than normal. Unlike any decent table I’ve played on, so much easier to adjust to any other room in the area – Olhausens, Metros, GC’s, different cloth, etc.

I have seen in past conversations that this was the design of the original tables, and Glen (RKC) I believe helped consult with Diamond to correct and better the design. I thought that was the difference between the red label and blue label. Yet these tables are both, intermixed around the room. I have also played on Diamonds around the country in various rooms and they do not all play like this, many played beautifully albeit tight, which is perfectly fine with me.


My questions:

- Is this behavior because of the cushion design, the height, or the cushions themselves?
- Why is it the same between red and blue label tables?
- Assuming Diamond can do something to correct it, but would that be at the room owner’s expense (in other words, it will never happen… )
- For anyone that plays on these, any advice to adjust better to the table, other than trying to miss position by a foot or more all night and play the extra bounce?

Thanks,
Scott

 

[realkingcobra]

I know this has been covered before, but I have played yet another frustrating match at a local pool hall and have to vent and confirm some questions.

Pool hall has 16 9’ Diamond tables. All recently recovered and leveled, so they each play fairly consistently compared to each other. All tables are very springy – balls lose almost no speed when hitting the cushion, almost look like they are even accelerating – and because of this very difficult to control the cue ball, safeties, etc., and table banks very short and inconsistently. Also because of the springiness the pockets play even tighter than normal, since any little hit into the cushion sends it farther away and quicker than normal. Unlike any decent table I’ve played on, so much easier to adjust to any other room in the area – Olhausens, Metros, GC’s, different cloth, etc.

I have seen in past conversations that this was the design of the original tables, and Glen (RKC) I believe helped consult with Diamond to correct and better the design. I thought that was the difference between the red label and blue label. Yet these tables are both, intermixed around the room. I have also played on Diamonds around the country in various rooms and they do not all play like this, many played beautifully albeit tight, which is perfectly fine with me.


My questions:

- Is this behavior because of the cushion design, the height, or the cushions themselves?
- Why is it the same between red and blue label tables?
- Assuming Diamond can do something to correct it, but would that be at the room owner’s expense (in other words, it will never happen… )
- For anyone that plays on these, any advice to adjust better to the table, other than trying to miss position by a foot or more all night and play the extra bounce?

Thanks,
Scott

How and what they clean the balls with can make tables play great, or like a nightmare...so that's important. I've seen the blue label Diamond's play just like the red label, and it's from the condition of the balls and cloth, not the rail design.

 

[Idaho]

How and what they clean the balls with can make tables play great, or like a nightmare...so that's important. I've seen the blue label Diamond's play just like the red label, and it's from the condition of the balls and cloth, not the rail design.

Another helpful response from RKC. He's not only one of the biggest trolls on AZ, but also the king of not answering a question, but using plenty of smilies:wink:

 

[chalkdust]

How and what they clean the balls with can make tables play great, or like a nightmare...so that's important. I've seen the blue label Diamond's play just like the red label, and it's from the condition of the balls and cloth, not the rail design.

 

[realkingcobra]

Another helpful response from RKC. He's not only one of the biggest trolls on AZ, but also the king of not answering a question, but using plenty of smilies:wink:

You really are looking to get banned again...arn't you also, I don't need to answer the questions of a bunch of people that are graduates of the shit house lawyers club that know nothing about what they're talking about....but all think they do! You really need to pay attention to your own life and not worry so much about mine, and what I'm doing. This OP was not asking for any of your BS in this thread, so if you can't offer some kind of support to his questions, then just stay the hell out of it with your BS!

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Yeah, we all know how smart you are about rail cushions...so, how much do you know about how humidity and dirty cloth effect the way a table plays, let alone the difference in how balls react when polished with mop & glow vs johnsons paste floor wax, or say turtle wax or lemon fresh pledge? Why don't you learn a little something before you start posting your stupid little comments again....like you really know something about what you're talking about!! I've been working on pool tables for well over 30 years...how long have you been working on them again? Better yet, how many tables have YOU worked on over the last 30 years? The main difference between you and SOME of us that post on AZ once in a while....is that while we ARE Professionals at what we do, you ARE just a beginner no matter how much you like it...or not!

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Another helpful response from RKC. He's not only one of the biggest trolls on AZ, but also the king of not answering a question, but using plenty of smilies:wink:

What's bad about you Idaho...is that you're NOT even a part time table mechanic...yet, you really think you know something...enough to be able to follow me around on AZ and where ever I post something...you feel the need to post your BS to follow. Troll....is a word better fit to someone just like you buddy!

 

[realkingcobra]

I know this has been covered before, but I have played yet another frustrating match at a local pool hall and have to vent and confirm some questions.

Pool hall has 16 9’ Diamond tables. All recently recovered and leveled, so they each play fairly consistently compared to each other. All tables are very springy – balls lose almost no speed when hitting the cushion, almost look like they are even accelerating – and because of this very difficult to control the cue ball, safeties, etc., and table banks very short and inconsistently. Also because of the springiness the pockets play even tighter than normal, since any little hit into the cushion sends it farther away and quicker than normal. Unlike any decent table I’ve played on, so much easier to adjust to any other room in the area – Olhausens, Metros, GC’s, different cloth, etc.

I have seen in past conversations that this was the design of the original tables, and Glen (RKC) I believe helped consult with Diamond to correct and better the design. I thought that was the difference between the red label and blue label. Yet these tables are both, intermixed around the room. I have also played on Diamonds around the country in various rooms and they do not all play like this, many played beautifully albeit tight, which is perfectly fine with me.


My questions:

- Is this behavior because of the cushion design, the height, or the cushions themselves?
- Why is it the same between red and blue label tables?
- Assuming Diamond can do something to correct it, but would that be at the room owner’s expense (in other words, it will never happen… )
- For anyone that plays on these, any advice to adjust better to the table, other than trying to miss position by a foot or more all night and play the extra bounce?

Thanks,
Scott

One other thing to keep in mind, Florida has major issues with humidity which effects all tables, and all cushions & cloth. If the air conditioning is not being used, and the tables play fast as hell or bouncy, it's not the table manufactures fault, nor a fault in the design of the tables. Yes, there is a difference between the Diamond red label and blue label tables and how they play, but as I already said, the rest of the table conditions have to be correct as well in order for any table to play right.

Glen

 

[fastone371]

I have noticed that about the Diamond bar boxes up here, there are only 5 up here on our league but they all play springy. I am not sure how they clean the balls but they look to be maintained like the average bar box ball, or not maintained at all. They were in good condition but they are not shiny like pool hall sets are.

 

[realkingcobra]

I have noticed that about the Diamond bar boxes up here, there are only 5 up here on our league but they all play springy. I am not sure how they clean the balls but they look to be maintained like the average bar box ball, or not maintained at all. They were in good condition but they are not shiny like pool hall sets are.

Balls that are clean so to speak, but not shiny are really loaded with surface friction and it plays into the cushion speed and banks as well. One way to prove this is to do nothing with the balls or table to improve how it plays...other than to take Armor-All and spray down the rail cloth on the cushions and wipe them down with it, that'll break any friction induced spin and short banks, then the table will play without friction...and play like it's brand new again....but, the conditions are short lived if the table cloth and balls are not taken care of right, and on a regular basis.

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

I have noticed that about the Diamond bar boxes up here, there are only 5 up here on our league but they all play springy. I am not sure how they clean the balls but they look to be maintained like the average bar box ball, or not maintained at all. They were in good condition but they are not shiny like pool hall sets are.

Even the Diamond red label tables will play noticeably better if you can do something to break the friction of the balls against the nose of the cushions. Dave at the Carom Room redesigned the red label Diamond's to the blue label design with my coaching, and I have to admit they play pretty damn good if you ask me But, there's a lot more red label Diamond's in WI that if I get the chance, I'll get them changed over to the blue label sometime in the future:thumbup:

 

[ososlow]

Humidity is a key factor to this. Glen just set up a new proam at my house with AC. Plays great ! He updated the rails on my buddys diamond 4 blocks away. He does not have AC. After they both were done they played nearly identical. His table got a little more springy this last week as the humidity rose. Mine stayed the same.

Btw... Thanks again Cobra !

 

[realkingcobra]

Humidity is a key factor to this. Glen just set up a new proam at my house with AC. Plays great ! He updated the rails on my buddys diamond 4 blocks away. He does not have AC. After they both were done they played nearly identical. His table got a little more springy this last week as the humidity rose. Mine stayed the same.

Btw... Thanks again Cobra !

But, this winter they'll both play identical...LOL...it was fun to say the least, not to mention the fact that I got to spend some time with two of my friends in WI...in the summer, instead of the WINTER!!!

 

[chalkdust]

Yeah, we all know how smart you are about rail cushions...so, how much do you know about how humidity and dirty cloth effect the way a table plays, let alone the difference in how balls react when polished with mop & glow vs johnsons paste floor wax, or say turtle wax or lemon fresh pledge? Why don't you learn a little something before you start posting your stupid little comments again....like you really know something about what you're talking about!! I've been working on pool tables for well over 30 years...how long have you been working on them again? Better yet, how many tables have YOU worked on over the last 30 years? The main difference between you and SOME of us that post on AZ once in a while....is that while we ARE Professionals at what we do, you ARE just a beginner no matter how much you like it...or not!

Glen

:grin:.......................................

 

[JC]

Another helpful response from RKC. He's not only one of the biggest trolls on AZ, but also the king of not answering a question, but using plenty of smilies:wink:

Enough already!! Just call a plumber, get your back toilet unplugged and move on. Maybe a little citrus spray.

If Glen wants to answer questions with two other questions that's his prerogative. When he slips up and actually answers questions there's usually something to be learned.

JC

 

[scottjen26]

Sorry, not buying ball cleanliness or humidity as the answer. The tables play HORRIBLE compared to any other table that I've played on excepting crap tables. And they shouldn't.

You can clearly see that the balls come in at say 5mph and leave the rail at 5mph if not slightly more. On a normal Brunswick or Olhausen table, or even on other Diamonds I've played on, there is a reduction in speed because of the absorption properties of the rails, as you would expect. Since I, like most people, have a lot of experience playing within a certain range of "normal" conditions, playing on these springy rails takes a lot of unnecessary conditions and takes away focus from other areas.

Was looking for some sort of design issue to be able to explain it at least. Everyone here agrees they don't play correctly. Just didn't know if it was the cushion itself, height, etc.

Scott

 

[realkingcobra]

Sorry, not buying ball cleanliness or humidity as the answer. The tables play HORRIBLE compared to any other table that I've played on excepting crap tables. And they shouldn't.

You can clearly see that the balls come in at say 5mph and leave the rail at 5mph if not slightly more. On a normal Brunswick or Olhausen table, or even on other Diamonds I've played on, there is a reduction in speed because of the absorption properties of the rails, as you would expect. Since I, like most people, have a lot of experience playing within a certain range of "normal" conditions, playing on these springy rails takes a lot of unnecessary conditions and takes away focus from other areas.

Was looking for some sort of design issue to be able to explain it at least. Everyone here agrees they don't play correctly. Just didn't know if it was the cushion itself, height, etc.

Scott

There IS a design change between the red and blue label Diamond's which makes the blue label play much better, but no way do they both play the same...I know, as I'm the person that redesigned the rails for Diamond.

 

[realkingcobra]

You can clearly see that the balls come in at say 5mph and leave the rail at 5mph if not slightly more. Scott

So, the cue ball never slows down then right...it just keeps getting faster and faster after coming into contact with one rail after another....right?

Look, I've traveled this whole country from coast to coast...even up to Alaska 5 times...and I can tell you for sure without a doubt....table conditions change from area to area, and one of the biggest changes is humidity, wear and tear, dirty cloth...and dirty balls. If you don't want to accept that as a reliable answer then I suggest you do some research on your own and come up with an answer....as I already have one, and it's based on facts...not assumptions

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Sorry, not buying ball cleanliness or humidity as the answer. The tables play HORRIBLE compared to any other table that I've played on excepting crap tables. And they shouldn't.

You can clearly see that the balls come in at say 5mph and leave the rail at 5mph if not slightly more. On a normal Brunswick or Olhausen table, or even on other Diamonds I've played on, there is a reduction in speed because of the absorption properties of the rails, as you would expect. Since I, like most people, have a lot of experience playing within a certain range of "normal" conditions, playing on these springy rails takes a lot of unnecessary conditions and takes away focus from other areas.

Was looking for some sort of design issue to be able to explain it at least. Everyone here agrees they don't play correctly. Just didn't know if it was the cushion itself, height, etc.

Scott

What is the name of the place that has these "HORRIBLE" playing Diamond's? I'll find out which tables they have through Diamond.

 

[scottjen26]

Well, with all due respect Glen, my observations are based on being an "A" player and 20 years of playing experience on many different tables in many parts of the country as well. I may not know all the technical ins and outs, and certainly couldn't assemble or fix a table in any way, but I know what plays properly based on a large sample to choose from and how to adjust to a wide variety of conditions. I can adjust to "fast" tables, such as when a table is recovered or worn out.

At this place (Park Avenue in Jacksonville, FL), the quickness is clearly caused by the rails being too springy, period, whether from the cushions themselves, old design, improper height, etc. The balls are decent, plenty of air conditioning in the room, and EVERY room down here has humid conditions and we all adjust to the tables playing tighter and "stickier" all over.

And of course the balls slow down, sarcasm noted. However, the best way to explain it is the rails do almost nothing to slow the ball down, it's all being done by the friction while traveling over the cloth. That is NOT typical for any other table I've played on, unless there is something wrong with the table. It's easy to see on a Brunswick, Olhausen, home table, etc., then when you shoot the ball into a rail, it leaves the rail with less speed, maybe 25% less if estimating. Not so on these tables.

I realize there was a design change between red and blue, which has me baffled that these tables, where the red and blue are intermingled throughout the room, play the same, i.e. not properly. Perhaps the rails were just improperly installed and they are a bit too low, causing the ball to "jump" off the rail. It's hard to see with the naked eye. Maybe it's just the type of rail rubber. But certainly consistent around the room, and as I said before not indicative of other Diamond tables I've played on in other areas (no other Diamonds to compare to in this area).


The whole reason I was asking the question is because I find it amazing that this is one of the main "players" rooms in the area, with one of the strongest fields in the weekly tourneys that I've seen anywhere in the country. Players have adapted their games to the tables, or people complain, but not much can be done. I feel that if the rails played properly these tables would play very tight but perfect, even if they banked or played a little short - again, something you can adjust for. It's just the springy effect that ruins everyone's sense of speed and touch at the table and requires constant compensation throughout a match, one slip and you end up 12" - 18" further than expected.

Scott