snooker aiming vs pool aiming

[sfleinen]

Your assumptions are wrong, i played 5 years of snooker, and 30 years of pool, and every other week i shoot and practice on a 6x12 snooker table. It is ok not to agree with me, in fact it will be boring if everyone agrees with everyone else, then we would not write and talk to each other. I stand by what i said take it or leave it; plus most likely this is how you shoot and do not know it. It takes years to know what you are doing in pool.

Example, look at how pros break in 9 ball, their tip is extremely low, where does the CB go, it stays at middle of the table, why? a home work for you.

That is pool. We are not talking pool here; we're talking snooker. You were the one who introduced this concept when talking about snooker, and I called you out on it. Giving me an assignment on why pool players do this has no applicability whatsoever to the topic at hand, and in fact, is a rabbit-hole diversion. Again, *snooker*. I again offer you the assignment where you show me a *snooker* player does this "aim at one place, but hit in a different place" on the cue ball. Let's keep this on topic.

-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

The thread topic was snooker aiming vs. pool aiming.

I'm not sure because there is a slight language issue but I think Mr. Naji was referring to a mis hit on the cue ball not an intentional positioning of the tip in one place & then hitting in another on purpose or at least I think that was his initial point, but I could be wrong.

Since the topic has turned to fundamentals, I would agree that Snooker Players strive for precision above all else & for that purpose their straight back & straight into the cue ball style is more conducive & intuitive than a stroke where the the tip is arcing down, up, & down again as in a 'true pendulum stroke'. If it is more beneficial in snooker why would it not be in pool?

But back to the thread topic as Sean suggested the different pocket to ball relationship of snooker certainly makes it a bit more difficult to throw balls in as one would probably have to align or aim the shot outside of the pocket to do so instead of to one side of the pocket as can be done in pool.

That said, it is not to say that snooker players do not do it on occasion when needed for position sake. As someone suggested, it's still about controlling the white ball.

All of the above are just my opinions. I have not played snooker in over 30 years but when I did I still used english to control the white ball. However I was not as successful on long full table shots.

 

[naji]

That is pool. We are not talking pool here; we're talking snooker. You were the one who introduced this concept when talking about snooker, and I called you out on it. Giving me an assignment on why pool players do this has no applicability whatsoever to the topic at hand, and in fact, is a rabbit-hole diversion. Again, *snooker*. I again offer you the assignment where you show me a *snooker* player does this "aim at one place, but hit in a different place" on the cue ball. Let's keep this on topic.

-Sean

Thanks Sean, i have no intention to prove you wrong, i am just stating what contribute to the claim i put. In pool or snooker, it is cuing sport, many body parts involved, to have the tip strikes at exact location on the CB is humanly impossible without error factor. The error factor determines where tip go, could be at exact point intended, a little left, right, bottom, right or combination of all. TOI fixes this and ensures it is going to at least one side of CB. The 9 ball break example is a good one because you can see pros lining up to shoot very low jacked up, and CB breaks in the middle of the table at execution, and analysis of the shot by experts determine that CB must have slightly high english on it, how that is possible, unless you know where to line up the tip with trial and error, and know approximately where the tip lands. Of course each player is different, some are more obvious than others. I have strong opinion that those players that are shorter than average American height, like Alex, Dennise, Biado, Lee Van,..to name a few, have better control of the tip impact point IMO, could be wrong.
Oh, i do watch my favorite player Ronnie always, love it when he wins all the time, best player IMO and i watched Steve Davis at his prime great player too.

 

[Pidge]

I am not buying any of this thread except what was said regarding Ronnie O.
or long shots best played with center ball. How do you suppose a player gets good on the next shot? Center ball? I doubt it. Just because the table is a little bigger,pockets smaller, etc the game remains the same. the balls are still round. do you guys ever watch a u tube video or anything? Snooker requires every bit as much spin as pool. They just do it that much better.

me.

We have a saying around here when a player plays an extreme english shot; its called Jimmy White-ing the cue ball.

The reason people assume people don't use as much side compared to pool is how the cushions react. Extreme english, for example on a snooker table wouldn't alter the cue balls path after contacting a rail anywhere near as much as a pool table. So they assume they either used little to no side.

They do use side, but only when they need it to gain position and since there are more balls to play for after a colour a centre, top or low shot on the cue ball will usually do the job to get sufficient position. Its more noticeable when going from red to colour because they have to play position for one ball, just like in rotation games, and we all know how much side is required in rotation. Take the break - you will be hard pushed to find a pro or high level amateur that doesn't use running side on the break. And then after the break...if a long pot is attempted its the norm to attempt that shot with side to get back into baulk as a shot to nothing.

As far as the different styles in strokes - every pro snooker player will have had numerous lessons as a kid or attended a snooker academy. All instructors promote the same style of stroke. Align the tip where you want to contact the white and stroke straight back and straight forward. For one its tradition here. Most importantly though is its damn effective. Why spend hours upon hours working on fundamentals when you stroke like you're using soft spaghetti? Besides, if you play with your chin against your cue, moving the cue up, down, left and right will make your head move, and that's just all kinds of wrong.

 

[ENGLISH!]

We have a saying around here when a player plays an extreme english shot; its called Jimmy White-ing the cue ball.

The reason people assume people don't use as much side compared to pool is how the cushions react. Extreme english, for example on a snooker table wouldn't alter the cue balls path after contacting a rail anywhere near as much as a pool table. So they assume they either used little to no side.

They do use side, but only when they need it to gain position and since there are more balls to play for after a colour a centre, top or low shot on the cue ball will usually do the job to get sufficient position. Its more noticeable when going from red to colour because they have to play position for one ball, just like in rotation games, and we all know how much side is required in rotation. Take the break - you will be hard pushed to find a pro or high level amateur that doesn't use running side on the break. And then after the break...if a long pot is attempted its the norm to attempt that shot with side to get back into baulk as a shot to nothing.

As far as the different styles in strokes - every pro snooker player will have had numerous lessons as a kid or attended a snooker academy. All instructors promote the same style of stroke. Align the tip where you want to contact the white and stroke straight back and straight forward. For one its tradition here. Most importantly though is its damn effective. Why spend hours upon hours working on fundamentals when you stroke like you're using soft spaghetti? Besides, if you play with your chin against your cue, moving the cue up, down, left and right will make your head move, and that's just all kinds of wrong.

Pidge,

Can it get any more simple than that?

I guess I better just leave it at that.

Best Regards & Wishes,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

Once your mind and the cue ball path are EXACTLY in sync

One of the most talented and enjoyable players I have ever seen. I really enjoy watching him play.

I'm naturally right handed. An old friend of mine told me years ago to learn to play left handed........and I do. Best advise I ever got. It kinda freaks people out when I switch to left rather than use a bridge to shoot right handed.

Thanks for the post CJ. :wink:

John

That's right, playing opposite handed uses a different part of your mind than usual. This creates a "relief" when switching back, much like taking weights off your back, ankles or wrists.

Ronnie talks about playing fast so he doesn't have time to "second guess" himself or "think" ....this would lead me to believe he is allowing his sub-conscious to do all of the playing....I can relate, and this is what I teach using the TOI Technique and various other mental training methods.

Once your mind and the cue ball path are EXACTLY in sync you will actually be able to "think" the cue ball into over cutting or under cutting the object ball....or hit a particular part of the pocket like the snooker players do with uncanny accuracy. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Pidge]

That's right, playing opposite handed uses a different part of your mind than usual. This creates a "relief" when switching back, much like taking weights off your back, ankles or wrists.

Ronnie talks about playing fast so he doesn't have time to "second guess" himself or "think" ....this would lead me to believe he is allowing his sub-conscious to do all of the playing....I can relate, and this is what I teach using the TOI Technique and various other mental training methods.

Once your mind and the cue ball path are EXACTLY in sync you will actually be able to "think" the cue ball into over cutting or under cutting the object ball....or hit a particular part of the pocket like the snooker players do with uncanny accuracy. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Your second paragraph hits the nail on the head.

No one can knock in a 147 under 6 minutes by thinking about each shot. Sometimes the best way to get into the zone, is to just zone out

 

[CJ Wiley]

"The Zone" is Cue Sport's Utopia

Your second paragraph hits the nail on the head.

No one can knock in a 147 under 6 minutes by thinking about each shot. Sometimes the best way to get into the zone, is to just zone out

Yes, that's how I relate directly to Ronnie, and there's a lot that goes into getting to that level of "thoughtless thought". Getting in "the Zone" is the best experience a player can have in pocket billiards, snooker or any cue sport for that matter.....it's the "Utopia".

 

[naji]

Yes, that's how I relate directly to Ronnie, and there's a lot that goes into getting to that level of "thoughtless thought". Getting in "the Zone" is the best experience a player can have in pocket billiards, snooker or any cue sport for that matter.....it's the "Utopia".

Do i understand this to mean, every top pro player is in the zone all the time? Meaning he /she very rarely misses a shot, his pattern play is flawless, practices 8 hours daily, and pool / snooker all he/she eats and breathes !!!

 

[CJ Wiley]

I seriously doubt if ANY player is in the zone even 3% of the time

Do i understand this to mean, every top pro player is in the zone all the time? Meaning he /she very rarely misses a shot, his pattern play is flawless, practices 8 hours daily, and pool / snooker all he/she eats and breathes !!!

I'm not sure why you would to this conclusion, it's quite the contrary.

I've not practiced 8 hours a day in my entire life, although I've played longer gambling matches on many occasions. Quality of practice exceeds quantity of time practicing.

Is EVERY top player in the zone ALL the time? ... I seriously doubt if ANY player is in the zone even 3% of the time.....it's the "Utopia" that many search for, and few truly find.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[3kushn]

I grew up playing snooker and while all this center (centre for Brits and Canadian's) ball stuff is "mostly" true on long shots etc...you can bet your life they all use "English/side" to move the cue ball around.

Note a couple of things for those who are not familiar with playing on heavy nap:

1. Shot played up table is kind of like playing slighty up hill...soft balls will fall towards the side
2. softly spun balls will walk against the nap and actually swearve backwards to what you expect
3. Balls will not spin off the rails as much as they would on a pool table (this is due to the flat faced rails)
4. Heavy cloth is easier to draw/follow than on a pool table so draw is used more often for shape

You don't think top caliber snooker players don't spin the ball. Go to youtube and go check Jimmy White or Alex Higgins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dBTngKnX1Q

Nick B

Must be the wrong vid. All I saw was center ball. Couple of draw shots but missed seeing any side spin used. Can you help me out here?

 

[Pidge]

I'm not sure why you would to this conclusion, it's quite the contrary.

I've not practiced 8 hours a day in my entire life, although I've played longer gambling matches on many occasions. Quality of practice exceeds quantity of time practicing.

Is EVERY top player in the zone ALL the time? ... I seriously doubt if ANY player is in the zone even 3% of the time.....it's the "Utopia" that many search for, and few truly find.

'The Game is the Teacher'

I understand you have played many sports CJ. Would you say its easier or harder to get in the zone in cue sports, than say tennis?

I ask because I don't believe I've ever got anywhere near the zone in a cue sport, or ever will for that matter. But as a kid and into my late teens I played football (soccer) at a high level and would pull off some ridiculous things, and have some games where I couldn't play any better and yet when I did this, I couldn't explain how I did it.

Perhaps it could be that the "zones" are different for different things. In football you don't have time to think and play is very instinctive. With cue sports you have all the time in the world to think seeing as everything that matters is stationary. So my logic brings me to say its harder to "switch off" in cue sports because it requires no reactions and less instinct.

 

[His Boy Elroy]

Shall I assume what some of you are saying is that there are are only so many hours a pool player has to practice, there are many skills other than shot making that have to be learned, therefore pool players never reach their potential in all of these skills, including shot making?Shall I then assume what some of you are saying is that shot making skill possesses such precedence over other skills in a snooker player's success that reaching one's potential in it is an absolute must and that acquiring other skills in snooker while important, is a secondary concern?

 

[Nick B]

Must be the wrong vid. All I saw was center ball. Couple of draw shots but missed seeing any side spin used. Can you help me out here?

What did you think all the body english was about? He's not try to hit centre ball while swinging himself to the left or right.

Nick

 

[CJ Wiley]

'The Zone is the Teacher' CJ Wiley

]I understand you have played many sports CJ. Would you say its easier or harder to get in the zone in cue sports, than say tennis? [/B]

I ask because I don't believe I've ever got anywhere near the zone in a cue sport, or ever will for that matter. But as a kid and into my late teens I played football (soccer) at a high level and would pull off some ridiculous things, and have some games where I couldn't play any better and yet when I did this, I couldn't explain how I did it.

Perhaps it could be that the "zones" are different for different things. In football you don't have time to think and play is very instinctive. With cue sports you have all the time in the world to think seeing as everything that matters is stationary. So my logic brings me to say its harder to "switch off" in cue sports because it requires no reactions and less instinct.

I played a lot of tennis between the ages of 12 and 16 and that was the time I was also developing as a professional pool player so the two games merged in my teenage years. I played both games about the same, but chose pool because I didn't come from a rich family and had to support myself.....it's almost impossible to do this in tennis.

Getting into the zone in tennis is easier because it's more of a reactionary sport, and you don't have to initiate ALL the movement of the ball.....therefore your reflexes and reaction help to induce the "trance- like" state (coupled with a breathing technique).

Pool and golf are the toughest in my opinion of all games because the ball is just "sitting" there and we have to create the ideal situation to hit it straight and precise. This takes more of a subconscious state to do at the ultimate level, consciously even the best players will flub "easy" shots.

I studied how to induce this state extensively and actually have a degree in Ericksonian Hypnosis and trained under master hypnotherapist, Richard Bandler back in the late 80s/early 90s. From that experience it opened up many doors of realization of the power of the subconscious and it a burning curiosity.

Martial Arts was also a big part of my life at the time and the two complimented each other.....certain styles of breathing is one of the key components in hypnosis, martial arts AND getting into "dead stroke" (The Zone).

Breathing is the "bridge" between the conscious (you can think about your breathing right now) and the unconscious (you can go for days/weeks and not "real eyes" you're breathing a certain way) and it's essential to understand how they work together, because if not they will actually cause internal conflict. Our "ego" is the root of the problem.....and is also the first step in the solution - a regular paradox.

The books 'Inner Tennis' and 'Zen in the Art of Archery' were also useful, and I highly recommend them if someone is interested in this type "art form".

When I was playing all the ESPN matches (96-98) was when my ability had peaked and I could go in and out of "the zone" {pretty much} at will.....and this is MUCH easier said than done....even as you feel yourself breath in.....and out......in......and...........out........ :wink: 'The Zone is the Teacher'

 

[naji]

I'm not sure why you would to this conclusion, it's quite the contrary.

I've not practiced 8 hours a day in my entire life, although I've played longer gambling matches on many occasions. Quality of practice exceeds quantity of time practicing.

Is EVERY top player in the zone ALL the time? ... I seriously doubt if ANY player is in the zone even 3% of the time.....it's the "Utopia" that many search for, and few truly find.

'The Game is the Teacher'

Back to the definition of "IN the ZONE" ; to be lucky, break balls so good, to be good, to run few packs, as far as i know every top player i saw compete have done that almost every time. Look at Rodney in the US open two days in a raw played exceptional pool; would you say he was in the zone, you bet he was!