No Reward for Improvement
- Thread starter lstevedus
- Start date
I'm an APA player. I play in the odd tournament every now and then but for the most part I only shoot competitively in the APA. I understand the "cost of moving up" idea. I don't subscribe to it though. I want to be a 9. I want to be the best. I don't want to win by cheating the system, keeping my skill level low and not trying my hardest. I want to win because I'm better than everyone else. That is my reward for improvement. I'm not trying to make a living off of APA pool. I'm trying to have fun. Just so happens that winning is fun.
Respect
Some people take great delight in beating someone despite the fact that their handicap doesn't match their ability. Others, who have a legitimate handicap rating still strut around like a rooster, crowing about their wins against players who are giving up the spot. Neither get much respect from me.
If I happened to beat a great player in a match, I am pleased with my victory but acknowledge that I would seldom ever beat the same player in an ahead set or even a long gambling match. Even if I play with no handicap against a better player and win, I still pay homage to the better player. In short, I give respect to my opponents when I win, especially the ones who generally play better than me.
JoeyA
Some people take great delight in beating someone despite the fact that their handicap doesn't match their ability. Others, who have a legitimate handicap rating still strut around like a rooster, crowing about their wins against players who are giving up the spot. Neither get much respect from me.
If I happened to beat a great player in a match, I am pleased with my victory but acknowledge that I would seldom ever beat the same player in an ahead set or even a long gambling match. Even if I play with no handicap against a better player and win, I still pay homage to the better player. In short, I give respect to my opponents when I win, especially the ones who generally play better than me.
JoeyA
Some people can't. There are very competitive types who won't feel much if they win only because of a spot.
I may be one of them. But I've seen low level players who are ECSTATIC to win their league match.
I've seen a 1 jumping up and down and hugging people after beating a 5 she could never beat even.
Some would claim that's a bad thing and she should, I dunno, be ashamed of herself or something.
I say her league fee bought her some good times and joy, and that's ultimately the point of it for most players.
Yeah I can understand someone who would get beaten week in week out being happy about a win, regardless of how heavily the opponent was handicapped. I'd be the same. From my understanding a lot of leagues in the US are franchized and there to make money? I may be way off with this but this is what I've sort of picked up on. So it makes sense to cater to players of all abilities, which leads to more money. That's fantastic. If I were starting out I'm not going to go into a league with 100 good regular players, I'm going to the one that caters for every level of play so I can play with people of similar ability.
I'm not sure on the number ratings either. Is 7 the highest in APA? 7s must be very good players then if they are. If I was the highest rating in my league, I'd be looking at leaving the league to one with stiffer competition to try better my self.
At the end of the day I understand how close-nit and full of cliques pool halls can be. So if having an APA night or what ever at such a pool hall is a way to get new faces in there, then rock on APA.
In response to JoeyA; I didn't word the bold part very well. What I meant to say was no one can take pride in beating someone because they have took advantage of the systems in place. I know if I was actually a 6, but managed to play under the guise of a 5 or 4 and beat a 7 because of it, its a pointless win in my eyes. If they beat them as a 6, then go them.
Banks
Banned
7's tend to range from a local B player to national Master level. In 9b, the ratings go up to 9. In BCA, it is usually known that some players have intentionally dumped to drop out before the cut-off for being moved up to A/Master. People that try to cheat the system are usually more proud of cheating the system than they are of how they do.
APA is a more recreational league, BCA is a more serious league. The way I see it is that APA brings a lot more people into the game and BCA gives them an additional avenue to grow once the game gets ahold of them. I just like playing.. APA, BCA, bar rules, big table, small table, just about anything really. I enjoy APA because it is a more casual night out and I get to see a lot of people that I've met over the years. Playing heads up, the winner is usually more obvious. Giving a handicap, you know you've got to knuckle down when giving up two games in a race to 5 when the person is shooting well enough to run a rack. Edit: That means that even if you're playing somebody you'd beat even up, you can still get a game where you have to put in some effort or you can quickly find yourself on the wrong end.
Last edited:
Are you in the UK? I'd think there's some equivalent of the APA.
Yep, they're franchises. The money varies wildly, I think almost anyone who buys an APA league
loves pool and plays regularly, or used to. It's a lot of hassle and the money is uncertain, I've seen
someone start a new franchise in an area and it died. A competing league had too much traction there.
The numbers go to 7 for 8-ball, and 9 for 9-ball. I am a bit of an odd duck in that I reached
those ratings but stay in the league. Our division has 2 others in the same boat.
I don't actually need to leave to face stiff competition!
It's very stiff competition if I were to play that lowest-ranked teammate. I'd have to spot them
61 balls going to 75 lol. You need to play nearly perfect, you can't afford to scratch on the break,
whiff a kick, or otherwise give them easy chances.
The spot is severe enough that many matches are truly coin flips and you simply need
to play better than the other guy that night. That keeps it interesting enough for me personally.
Some might not really get anything out of it unless there's money riding on it.
Side bets are not unheard of in APA matches.
As far as I know there is nothing like APA here. Little to no handicapping, except in snooker and no league gets franchised out. I may be wrong, so hopefully someone from here can chime in. We have regional English Pool leagues, both by city, county and nationally. None are handicapped and are played from evens so the best 5 or whatever players to form a team are usually the ones that get the winnings. The leagues are thriving in English pool where I am. Teams are usually pub teams or pool hall teams and we have 17 divisions, each with atleast 11 teams in. All this from an averaged sized town. I'd hate to think how big the leagues are in the large cities. The good teams play the good teams, the bad teams play the bad teams and are seperated by numerous divisions.
I've given away crazy spots for money, and also had crazy spots. Nothing comes close to the pressure of knowing your opponent is so good that a miss means you are likely sitting down for the next 5+ racks. Granted its going to be very tough with a 61-75 spot like you describe but you must surely not know if the player is going to pocket even the easiest of shots. Seems more of a "is he, isn't he going to make it" kind of pressure more than a "FFS he is, and he is on the next 30 balls too" kind of pressure if that makes sense?
An APA style league is definitely something I want to try though. I feel I don't really understand it so much so my comments are probably way off.
That does make sense, we have a 2 that misses ball in hand almost every week.
So it's not the same pressure as when some A player is definitely 100% gonna get out of this rack
and probably 70% to get out of the next one too, and you may never see the table again.
If you play careful a 7.8. or 9 can reasonably beat the 1 almost every time.
If they don't it just feels like bad luck.
The equalizer is the lack of push out in APA 9b... brutal to start off
your break with a 2 rail kick and then miss and watch the opponent get 20-30% of their points
in one inning.
No push out??? Wow. That is brutal. My break isn't the strongest it could be so I would definitely suffer with no push out.
Does it not make sense to try and not make a ball on the break? Let the CB roll to the bottom rail and let the 1 travel up table for a very tough shot, or a very good chance of a snooker?
This rule could be a possible deal breaker for me, if I had a choice of leagues in my area.
Diminishing Return
Steve,
I've heard what you are referring to as "the diminishing return" in pool. I think its true to an extent that everything has some truth in it. As you grow in skill you might be asked to give up weight both in pool leagues or gambling so its universal. Its rare two players will match up and be perfectly equal.
Making a living playing pool on the pro level is difficult so I can imagine how those guys feel about playing handicapped players at a tournament.
Even if you just play locally it becomes increasingly hard to find competition that is up to speed with where you are so as to get a more challenging game.
Funny thing about giving a spot though. Its makes you play safe pool which is more correct because you cant mess up and still win.
I think there is truth in the statement about a diminishing return in pool but it also depends on what you are in it for. If you're in it to make you're game better then you find ways to even up the odds even if its just playing for fun and this can make the diminishing return sort of disappear in personal game when you are playing friendly.
If you just want to win then you keep beating whoever you play and then you are giving some lessons to those that want to learn to beat you.
If its a challenge that you want, giving out a spot really isn't a bad thing to do. The extra challenge makes you play a game you might didn't really know that you had in you. Just my opinion, there is and there isn't a diminishing return in pool. It just depends on how you look at it. I prefer the positive.
Steve,
I've heard what you are referring to as "the diminishing return" in pool. I think its true to an extent that everything has some truth in it. As you grow in skill you might be asked to give up weight both in pool leagues or gambling so its universal. Its rare two players will match up and be perfectly equal.
Making a living playing pool on the pro level is difficult so I can imagine how those guys feel about playing handicapped players at a tournament.
Even if you just play locally it becomes increasingly hard to find competition that is up to speed with where you are so as to get a more challenging game.
Funny thing about giving a spot though. Its makes you play safe pool which is more correct because you cant mess up and still win.
I think there is truth in the statement about a diminishing return in pool but it also depends on what you are in it for. If you're in it to make you're game better then you find ways to even up the odds even if its just playing for fun and this can make the diminishing return sort of disappear in personal game when you are playing friendly.
If you just want to win then you keep beating whoever you play and then you are giving some lessons to those that want to learn to beat you.
If its a challenge that you want, giving out a spot really isn't a bad thing to do. The extra challenge makes you play a game you might didn't really know that you had in you. Just my opinion, there is and there isn't a diminishing return in pool. It just depends on how you look at it. I prefer the positive.