Unteachable Students

S

Six Shooter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Any instructors here have what I deem as being unteachable students?

I've come across 3 classes of people that I just can't seem to get through to.

1: The Uber Computer Professional.

2: Engineers

3: Teachers/Professors.

Currently, I have a student that is retired Law Enforcement but is also Professor for an online university.

I'm not knocking her just trying to find a way to get through to her.

She's only been playing a few months and I teach her for free but she has got to be the most hard headed person I've ever tried to teach.

Example: I've shown her over, over, and over again how to do a closed bridge. She always reverts to what I call (others may call it this too) a hook style closed bridge.

This is just one example. There are other issues but I just don't know how to get through to her.

She has a much higher education than I do so it's not like I'm talking above her capability of comprehension.

How does one go about teaching this type of person without resorting to pulling out the last hair on your head (I've actually got just a few more than one)?
 
Six Shooter said:
I've come across 3 classes of people that I just can't seem to get through to.

1: The Uber Computer Professional.

2: Engineers

3: Teachers/Professors.
Click to expand...

Let me add a couple to the list:

4: My girlfriend, medical professional

5: My last girlfriend, banker
 
First of all, they will never advance if they don't enjoy the sport so indulge their petty idiosyncrasies. Remind them occasionally but don't push the small stuff yet.

Most of these players will become comfortable with their progress and they'll be happy where they are. Others will gain a deeper appreciation of the game and then is the time to focus on the details.

It's the students that want more...those who are serious about the details and want to perfect their form that you should be much more critical with. They will love the sport too but they will thank you for pushing the small stuff.

Find balance with the students needs always keeping in mind that they must love the sport or they will never appreciate your efforts.
 
You mention 3 classes of people that can be very analytical and fact based. Since I am that way myself, I have no issue with these types of students. I also dumb down my explanations for other types who don't care about the physics or the detailed explanations and just want to be shown what to do.

One of the strengths of a good instructor, IMO, is to be able to diverge from any sort of canned or pre-packaged material and just teach. Be able to demonstrate a concept in multiple ways based on the teacher's experience and knowledge. Sometimes a detailed explanation is good, sometimes visual/demonstration is needed, sometimes you need to draw it on paper, sometimes you need to have the student grab onto your hand (or vice-versa) and literally have them feel what you do. If they don't get it one way, try another. Great feeling when the light bulb does go on for the student.

Eventually though, you may find some people that you just aren't compatible with. They may be hard headed, always think they know what you are trying to teach, etc. You can either take it as a challenge to get through to them differently or politely refer them to someone else to save you both aggravation.

Scott
 
Six Shooter said:
Any instructors here have what I deem as being unteachable students?

I've come across 3 classes of people that I just can't seem to get through to.

1: The Uber Computer Professional.

2: Engineers

3: Teachers/Professors.

Currently, I have a student that is retired Law Enforcement but is also Professor for an online university.

I'm not knocking her just trying to find a way to get through to her.

She's only been playing a few months and I teach her for free but she has got to be the most hard headed person I've ever tried to teach.

Example: I've shown her over, over, and over again how to do a closed bridge. She always reverts to what I call (others may call it this too) a hook style closed bridge.

This is just one example. There are other issues but I just don't know how to get through to her.

She has a much higher education than I do so it's not like I'm talking above her capability of comprehension.

How does one go about teaching this type of person without resorting to pulling out the last hair on your head (I've actually got just a few more than one)?
Click to expand...
Just my guess...

There are probably too many unknown variables in her mind. She does not know what to pay attention to first. Try to simplify the process and pick up your (actually their) battles carefully. What is the minimum she needs to play better than before? Any tip that would advance her game and she would be satisfied with her results and be motivated to learn more? Maybe a short checklist for each shot that you can create? First, it would include only items she already know, then the list would be extended once she learns more.

Do you think it might be the case?
 
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Six Shooter said:
Any instructors here have what I deem as being unteachable students?

I've come across 3 classes of people that I just can't seem to get through to.

1: The Uber Computer Professional.

2: Engineers

3: Teachers/Professors.

Currently, I have a student that is retired Law Enforcement but is also Professor for an online university.

I'm not knocking her just trying to find a way to get through to her.

She's only been playing a few months and I teach her for free but she has got to be the most hard headed person I've ever tried to teach.

Example: I've shown her over, over, and over again how to do a closed bridge. She always reverts to what I call (others may call it this too) a hook style closed bridge.

This is just one example. There are other issues but I just don't know how to get through to her.

She has a much higher education than I do so it's not like I'm talking above her capability of comprehension.

How does one go about teaching this type of person without resorting to pulling out the last hair on your head (I've actually got just a few more than one)?
Click to expand...

I think I'd rather use the word 'difficult' than 'unteachable,' but yes, I know what you mean.

I have found that there is no formula for getting through to somebody. You just have to draw on your own personal experiences with people and use your powers of observation.

For example, in the case of the woman who won't change her bridge: She's not convinced yet that she has to change it. I might say something like, "I see you've elected to keep that bridge. That's fine and we will work around it but I think I should tell you that I will have to limit some of the things I originally wanted to share with you due to instability issues with your bridge, but as long as you're OK with that we'll just focus on other things instead.

You may even share some of the things that you won't be able to work on with her.

That will get her attention.

Getting through to someone means that somewhere along the way, they've made the decision to make a change because they believe it's the right thing to do. That's what we do as teachers. We give them the information they need to make that decision.
 
rrick33 said:
First of all, they will never advance if they don't enjoy the sport so indulge their petty idiosyncrasies. Remind them occasionally but don't push the small stuff yet.



It's the students that want more...those who are serious about the details and want to perfect their form that you should be much more critical with. They will love the sport too but they will thank you for pushing the small stuff.

Find balance with the students needs always keeping in mind that they must love the sport or they will never appreciate your efforts.
Click to expand...

First, I want to thank everyone for their responses.

She does want to get pretty serious with learning to play so yes, I try to approach her with a serious mentality. She's not looking to be a world beater but she really does want to advance to be much better than she is.

I've told her that I think she in too much of a rush. She seems to believe that it will come to her overnight or within a week or two. I've told her many times that it will take months or possibly years depending on what she puts into it. Yet, she still wants it today.
 
scottjen26 said:
You mention 3 classes of people that can be very analytical and fact based. Since I am that way myself, I have no issue with these types of students. I also dumb down my explanations for other types who don't care about the physics or the detailed explanations and just want to be shown what to do.



Scott
Click to expand...

She is a very analytical type. I am as well.

Not putting her resume' out there but she is retired law enforcement, is a published author, avid cyclist who has trained with Lance Armstrong, holds a PhD, Professor, and is also employed the federal gov't.

Having law enforcement experience myself, I thought I would be able to relate to her on a fairly reasonable level.

Sadly, it has not been the case.

I have shown her many times, step by step, how to make a correct closed bridge. I've actually had her put her hand out on the table, lay the cue on her hand and then I manipulate her fingers to the correct position for a closed bridge. I've done the same for open and rail bridges as well.

At some point, as you state, I may very well have to refer her to someone else.

I teach her for free but I'm wondering if I decide to actually start making her pay. As it stands at the moment, I generally cover her table time as well as my own.
 
This is not directed at Six Shooter. It is a general observation about teaching the kinds of people he has identified. (For what it is worth, I am one of them).

First the student has to respect the teacher. It has nothing to do with credentials. It is about advanced knowledge that is respected.

These people read books, often two or three at a time and they usually cut to the chase, meaning they skip introductory and redundant material. If the author is not respected for the knowledge and ability they put the book down, So give them home work. Send them home with Rorbert Bryne or Dr Dave's books with specific assignments to read chapters X, Y, and Z.

These people respect behavioral demonstrations of what works and what does not work. Show them their current way and then the correct way. Have them shoot three to five times each way and keep track of the results. While others talk about experience as the teacher, these types of people use it to guide their learning.

A great deal can be accomplished with theory and science with these types who prefer to know the "why" of things followed by studies of the ideas in practice.

I think the mistake that people make with highly educated people is that the general public thinks they are in some way looking down their nose at others. Quite the opposite is true. They are simply more fact based.

I once worked with a Nobel Laureate. One day I came into the lab and he was having a discussion with the janitor. Seems the janitor had been a union steward for many years and the foreign born physiologist knew little about unions in this country. He sat at the feet of the janitor and learned all about how unions work for two hours.

With the bridging problem I would probably discuss the need for a solid abutment, the bones in the hand and how a 1/16the error in aiming will result in a missed shot. The need to use the bones for an abutment is "required." Then I would observe her physiology. Perhaps she has special needs for how to get the stick resting on the bones.

Then too some people are just klutzes and can't form a bridge, Then they need physical exercises. She will do it when she knows the why.

PS. I am a PhD forensic psychologist with many years experience and teaching in criminal Justice :thumbup:
 
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FranCrimi said:
I think I'd rather use the word 'difficult' than 'unteachable,' but yes, I know what you mean.

I have found that there is no formula for getting through to somebody. You just have to draw on your own personal experiences with people and use your powers of observation.

For example, in the case of the woman who won't change her bridge: She's not convinced yet that she has to change it. I might say something like, "I see you've elected to keep that bridge. That's fine and we will work around it but I think I should tell you that I will have to limit some of the things I originally wanted to share with you due to instability issues with your bridge, but as long as you're OK with that we'll just focus on other things instead.

You may even share some of the things that you won't be able to work on with her.

That will get her attention.

Getting through to someone means that somewhere along the way, they've made the decision to make a change because they believe it's the right thing to do. That's what we do as teachers. We give them the information they need to make that decision.
Click to expand...

Fran,

I do agree fully with all that you have mentioned but there is on thing in particular that you mention that just really stands out.

I will mention to her that she can keep the hook bridge but it will continue to produce undesirable outcomes and that it will limit what I can teach her followed by what limitations it will impose.

Randy,

I do understand the simple philosophy to what you are saying.

She came to me and mentioned that she wanted to learn how to play and explained her goals as to how far she would be would like to go in her pool adventure.

Let me add that she is a personal friend that moved to DC from Oregon and that when she found out I played, she asked me to teach her.

Your philosophy is that it is very spot on in that I am always there.

She does go on certain days to practice by herself. I do ask her what her goals were for that day and how her progress was. She doesn't get real specific with either which leads me to believe that she basically throws anything I say out the door and is adamant about just doing things her way but tries to convince me she's following my advice.

We put in some time together this past Sunday and after I had gotten tired of playing, I sat back and watched her.

I've shown her several drills but she didn't use any of them on Sunday. She proceeded to set up her own drill which all in all is good as it shows some creativity, but she began and continued this drill having zero clue as to what she wanted to accomplish.

In short, it was fairly brutal to watch.

I'll continue to monitor her progress and make a determination in a few weeks if will start charging her for my time or refer her to someone else.

Sorry for the long post here.

Thanks again to you all.
 
While it may at first seem counter intuitive it is none-the-less true. These people have little respect for credentials. They have been around many people with supposed credentials who know very little.

What they do respect is knowledge, facts, and real world experience. Use that as a guide when working with them because they have very sensitive BS filters and are well aware of the idea that they know very little outside their small world of expertise.
 
Six Shooter said:
... Example: I've shown her over, over, and over again how to do a closed bridge. She always reverts to what I call (others may call it this too) a hook style closed bridge. ...
Click to expand...
It looks to me like you're going about it wrong. I doubt she is ready for a closed bridge and you should be showing her a bridge that is easier to make -- a solid open bridge. Obviously, if you have tried the same thing multiple times it's time for you to find another path.

As mentioned in my next article in Billiards Digest which is a long review of Clive Cottingham's book "Billiards", there are closed bridges that are easier to make for beginners. If you want to teach her a closed bridge, you may want to start with one of those.

Have you explained why a solid bridge is important? A lot of those technical types much prefer to hear explanations rather than dictums.
 
Joe, I do in fact present my real world experiences to her.

I do believe that it could come down to a lack of respect. Not for me personally but more along the line of just not respecting the experience when I relate it to her.

Bob,

Yes. Time to find another path indeed.

I have shown her open bridges as well and repetitively at that. She just won't use them. Not sure why but I guess it will come when it's time to for her to truly understand them.

I'll read over your article and see if I can find something that she may adapt to a little better.

I always explain why "this or that" works and why "that and this" doesn't work.

I'll endeavor on though.
 
I have found, in my personal experience, that there are many women who simply do not respond well to men teaching them pool. I have watched some men beat their heads against the wall trying to teach a woman to play....only to have me step up and show them a few things that they seem to get right away. I think more than anything else....it's a Venus and Mars thing.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk
 
Six Shooter said:
Ridewiththewind,

Then by all means; please, please come here to DC and teach her. LOL.
Click to expand...

I'm no miracle worker! Lol! Some people of higher intelligence/social standing just do not adapt well to being taught anything.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk
 
ridewiththewind said:
I have found, in my personal experience, that there are many women who simply do not respond well to men teaching them pool. I have watched some men beat their heads against the wall trying to teach a woman to play....only to have me step up and show them a few things that they seem to get right away. I think more than anything else....it's a Venus and Mars thing.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


No human being alive could teach my girlfriend how to play pool, and many women have tried.
I've even tried to just use the cueball, no object ball, no pocket, nobody watching, just slide the cue through the ball, and she can't do it.
Simple instructions like centering the tip of the cue to the cue ball, same thing, literally hundreds of times over the last 18-months, and she can't do it.
We need low skill level players anyway, so at this point if she moves up to a 3, our relationship is over>>:smile:
 
Seems like you are trying to approach things the right way SixShooter. I have a student now who is similar, not as obstinate He questions a lot of things I tell him, especially when he feels he has an idea that is better. He's very nice about it, just stubborn.

He's also convinced that because he excelled in the past in other sports that he can be a tournament-ready pool player in 6 months. I keep trying to tell him that while it might be possible to enter a tournament in that time frame and not completely get annihilated, it would take a lot of determination and practice. He's gotten very good in just 4 lessons, night and day from when he started. But he continually skips lessons because of work (no issue with that), and I think he has the same expectation. I just know it will be my fault somehow when in 6 months he's not ready... That's why I keep reminding him it's not a race, you have to gain the knowledge, work on the mechanics, and put in the time.

Some students are just more challenging than others... :)
Scott
 
cuesblues said:
No human being alive could teach my girlfriend how to play pool, and many women have tried.
I've even tried to just use the cueball, no object ball, no pocket, nobody watching, just slide the cue through the ball, and she can't do it.
Simple instructions like centering the tip of the cue to the cue ball, same thing, literally hundreds of times over the last 18-months, and she can't do it.
We need low skill level players anyway, so at this point if she moves up to a 3, our relationship is over>>:smile:
Click to expand...

Lol! Well, the sad truth is that not everyone has the aptitude for it.

Case in point...I used to play some great darts, back when they were still darts, (steel tips and bristle boards). I can't do a darn thing with the soft tips and electronic boards....I no longer have the aptitude for it.

Quite honestly, many women have issues with spatial acuity...something really important when it comes to pool. Some may never get it.

I did help one gal one night when she told me she just couldn't play. I showed her, and made her practice just getting comfortable with an open bridge...I didn't want her focusing on anything else but getting comfortable with the bridge and holding the cue properly. Next, I showed her how to get down on the cue, and see the shot line. Next thing she knew, she was beginning to pot balls...even a few cut shots. The look on her face as the light bulb went on was worth all the effort to me.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk
 
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