The key part about sandbagging is not to call someone a sandbagger but to write them up. If team captains did their jobs and wrote suspected sandbaggers up than the league has something to go on. If a player can work the numbers than there is usually nothing the league can do. More often than not when you suspect someone of sandbagging and talk to someone from the league. They can make a numbers argument as to why the player isn't sandbagging. There is no harm in simply writing on the scoresheet that you thought someone was better than their ranking. Problem is you may be the only one to do this. So if a player has played 10 times and your the only one to write him up. What does the league have to go on. Sure players get written up over sour grapes and I am sure the league can see the pattern from some team captains. That is why I have always thought it would be a good idea to have a column for each player that you simply check whether you thought they shot. BELOW, AT or ABOVE their skill level. So this way each player is being ranked each week by their peers.
Question about sandbagging in the Apa...
- Thread starter Guapo
- Start date
I just purchased this shirt. Thought it was funny to wear at TAP
Is it likely? No. The top gun award typically goes to someone who is not sandbagging.
Is it possible? Sure. So long as the APA relies on a mathematical system based on scoresheets to determine handicaps, anything is possible.
I actually think the Equalizer system works pretty well. The problem usually rests in scorekeeping. From my experience, lower ranks typically take-on the duty of scorekeeping which is fine for about 90% of the shots but there are plenty of defensive shots that require more experienced scrutiny.
Personally, I think the APA should clearly state that a two-way shot will be marked as defensive shot if the ball is missed. I think this would eliminate a fair portion of winning-sandbaggers.
Is it possible? Sure. So long as the APA relies on a mathematical system based on scoresheets to determine handicaps, anything is possible.
I actually think the Equalizer system works pretty well. The problem usually rests in scorekeeping. From my experience, lower ranks typically take-on the duty of scorekeeping which is fine for about 90% of the shots but there are plenty of defensive shots that require more experienced scrutiny.
Personally, I think the APA should clearly state that a two-way shot will be marked as defensive shot if the ball is missed. I think this would eliminate a fair portion of winning-sandbaggers.
Touche. Sorry, Don't know how to type the accent mark on the e.
My style of play does consist of having more innings. I don't ever really try to run from the break. I only broke and ran one time in league because the table was wide open with no clusters or problem balls. I know I'm not good enough to run all 8 consistently so why run 7? That's the difference between me and a lot of my opponents. They swear they can run out like water and then run into problems. And when they do, I'm smart about the shots I take and play safeties if necessary.
I think I will be moving up to a 5 after my match this week. I beat a six 3-0. Coincidentally, the top gun in the upper tier. BUT, last week I got skunked by a 4...
I'm an reverse Sandbagger. I'm an APA 6 but I should be a 4.
If you wanna play some cheap, let me know...
I'm in SGV too....
I bet you haven't played in a while either
I PM'd you.
Thanks for the honesty, it's refreshing.
That is very strong! And also probably one of the reasons people sandbag.
No, it's just that my style of play naturally builds innings. I'm not good enough to break and run so I'm not going to try to only to leave my opponent an open table.
Top Gun point accumulated per win are the handicap of your opponent. Beat a 4 you get 4 top gun points. It doesn't matter if you beat them on the hill or shut them out the top gun points remain the same. How the match was played (# of innings, safetys etc) determines handicap, so yes you can sand bag and be top gun.
This makes lots of sense.
Guess I'm not a true sandbagger then. I want to win TG for my division and try to win the TG tourney.
As for the rest, I've only missed a couple of weeks this session and am 6-9. And congrats on making it to Vegas, that is the ultimate goal!
Wow, would you look at the time! It's getting late, gotta go guys.
I've 3-0'd opponents at least 3 or 4 times this session. Team takes priority so I'm going to try and get that extra point. I've never dumped a game for the sake of "padding"
The APA addresses that (kind of). A shot considered as defensive is based on intent, if you tried to make a ball in the APA's eyes it is not a defensive shot, if it's a two way shot well then that's still an offensive shot as long as you had some intent to make a ball, it's doesn't specify that your intent had to greater than 50% to make the shot or to get safe. I can't think of a time when the amount of defensive shots were ever in agreement on the two score sheets. We played a match in our city tournament this past summer and every time one of our players missed a shot the opposing team marked a defensive shot, by the end of that team match they had 91 defensive shots marked for us in total. You won;'t always agree, defensive shots are at best subjective in the scorekeepers eyes. You might swear I've just shot a defensive shot, but in reality it was just a horrible shot, but still you mark it down. The rule I live by as a scorekeeper, and I do my best to be fair and honest, is that if I think it was a defensive shot I mark it down. If you're playing and keeping score on the up and up I think you can usually tell
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Based on that description I would say you are not sandbagging. If you are moving balls and playing shots with the intention of getting yourself into the position to get back to tge table, run out, and win the game I would call that good bar box 8 ball.
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The 23 rules I think has a lot to do with it. I don't play in the APA any longer mainly because of that. Got tired of only being able to play if our really low ranked player showed up. I always wish they would just do away with the 23 rules and have the senior player rule. Where you can only shoot 2-3 high level players a night. I guess players would still sandbag to stay under that to. I just never understood sandbagging. I mean whats the most your team can win in a year. Spit that by 5-8 players and what are you winning. Just never understood it. Must be big bucks out there that I never heard of.
To get to the next level, you should start playing for the break-and-run. As you clear your colors, you face more pressure to not mess up and give your opponent an open table. The only real way to experience and learn to deal with that pressure is to bring it upon yourself during a match.
Obviously, if there are problem clusters and no way to deal with them, you have to play more defensively but learning how to break up clusters is part of the game, too.
Obviously, if there are problem clusters and no way to deal with them, you have to play more defensively but learning how to break up clusters is part of the game, too.
Seems like the answer is yes.
And as for noticing an obvious dump, you're right, it does make for a negative experience.
Again, seems like the answer is yes.
Also, sandbaggers have the biggest advantage when matched against a higher skilled player. It's tough to beat someone when you're giving them weight AND they're playing under their true potential.
That is a bit fishy.
Haha, there's been times when I've wanted to talk back to people that accuse me of sandbagging.
For example, they'll say, "You're not a 4." and I'll feel like saying, "And you're not a 5 if you know what I mean". But obviously I don't.
Like you said, it's easy to cry sandbagger and play the victim role. One can easily remind them of the mistakes they made in key points of the match that allowed me to take control.
Best post on here. So much truth. All this talk might be all for not, I'd be surprised if I don't move up to a 5 after I beat a 6 3-0.
Proper score keeping is key. Most are too lazy to do it.
I just purchased this shirt. Thought it was funny to wear at TAP
Ouch!!!
Agreed on the new system eliminating most of it but the lack of proper score keeping still makes it possible.
Thanks for the discussion fellas.
I'll put it this way - In my opinion, any time a shooter deliberately shoots an offensive shot with a defensive option, he should be credited with a defensive shot if the ball doesn't go in. I'm not talking about the lucky safe nor am I talking about situations where it could only be played that way. I'm talking about documenting intelligent shot-selection where the shooter took an added risk of making the ball in exchange for defensive protection if he didn't.
You understand where I'm coming from StraightPoolU. :thumbup: I was fortunate enough to have a very strong player take the time to show me how to play this game right. It completely changed the way I look at the game.
I do play to b & r during practice or when I'm just messing around but during league, my main priority is to keep control of the table and win.
Don't get me wrong, I look forward to being at that next level. I try to watch super 7s as much as possible to pick up some new things.
Like I've said, I look forward to becoming a 5, then a 6 and 7. I practice drills at least a few hours a week. I put my time in.
My point is that there is more to pool that putting the balls in the holes.
Practicing break-and-runs is great and required, but at the same time the pressure of competing adds another aspect to the game that is hard to reproduce on the practice table when missing doesn't mean as much.
Playing 9-ball I have dogged soooo many 8-ball shots because I was thinking about how if I missed, I'd give the game to my opponent. I don't have those thoughts when I practice and even if I consciously thought that, I still wouldn't have that knot in my gut that comes when I compete.
The knock on the APA is that you can WIN and still keep your handicap low. So, yes, you could legitimately be considered a sandbagger in this situation (even if you really aren't sandbagging, but your question didn't really ask that).
Freddie <~~~ damned if you don't; damned if you want to
You can't really practice 8-ball. in practice, it gets too easy and it really shouldn't feel easy when you're competing. When you're competing, it should feel hard. You should feel this need to be precise. You just don't get that feeling from practice.
Just go play in 3 leagues and gamble with anyone that beats you.
Top gun is based SOLELY on win loss. Beat a 5, get 5 points. Beat a 7, get 7 points etc.
Take me for instance. I can only play every other week, but I maintained an 80% win ratio.
The person that won the top gun had a lower percentage but played every week. Had more wins and therefore, more points.
As for padding innings, a 4 is expected to win in 4 to 5 innings. If they win, but go over that many innings, they get the applied score based on their win percentage. So more safeties or more innings do absolutely no good. If the scorekeepers are doing their job, sandbagging is very difficult. My league opperator has scorekeeping clinics to certify scorekeepers. There needs to be more education on how to determine a safety shot. There is a video on the APA website on how to recognize defensive shots. It may open a lot of peoples eyes.
I don't know if it is happening nationwide, but apa is changing the mvp/top gun formula in two different leagues I'm aware of. The new formula will be based more upon points won for your team versus just win lose. So it would be more difficult to sandbag and still win mvp than with the existing formula.
I don't know why such a big deal is made of the apa handicapping system. Imho, it is much more accurate than the golf handicapping system. I also believe less than 5% of those playing make any attempt at sandbagging. It isn't possible to create a system that is sandbagging proof. There are always people who will cheat, or attempt to cheat. The root cause problem isn't the apa handicapping system, it is all the morons who don't know how to keep score correctly, it is the drunks and slackers who don't pay attention to the game they're keeping score for, it's the team Captains who don't take the time to report suspected sandbaggers, on their own team and others, to the league operators. Unless people wanted to pay 2 or 3 times as much in dues, to pay for people to audit the matches, the league has to be self policing. By and large, the system is fine. It's the users of the system that are flawed.
Its beyond me why someone would compromise their integrity for the sale of a trophy, a patch and a few hundred dollars.
I don't know why such a big deal is made of the apa handicapping system. Imho, it is much more accurate than the golf handicapping system. I also believe less than 5% of those playing make any attempt at sandbagging. It isn't possible to create a system that is sandbagging proof. There are always people who will cheat, or attempt to cheat. The root cause problem isn't the apa handicapping system, it is all the morons who don't know how to keep score correctly, it is the drunks and slackers who don't pay attention to the game they're keeping score for, it's the team Captains who don't take the time to report suspected sandbaggers, on their own team and others, to the league operators. Unless people wanted to pay 2 or 3 times as much in dues, to pay for people to audit the matches, the league has to be self policing. By and large, the system is fine. It's the users of the system that are flawed.
Its beyond me why someone would compromise their integrity for the sale of a trophy, a patch and a few hundred dollars.
You are exactly right, and said it with out pulling punches!
I wasn't really sure about the 3 point system. After playing it for a while, I think it wl be just fine. Some complaints, but not a lot. We did get screwed once because of it. Won 3 of the 5 matches one night. But the two we lost were shut outs. The 3 we won went to the hill. They got 9 points, we got 6. Thats the way the cue ball bounces I guess.
Maybe top gun will be better of too. It should be a lot closer now if it goes nation wide.
We have switched to the new Top Gun format here, this session.
It's based on how many points you average per game, out of the total points that you had available. This session I went 11-0, but didn't have many shutouts, so I averaged about 2.18 points per match. The guy who won went 7-0, but averaged 2.29 points per match, obviously getting more 3-0 wins than I did during the session.
(Under the old format, he may still have won, as he being a strong SL6 would have been playing primarily 5's, 6's and 7's all session, whereas I being an SL5 and having stronger players on my team, I played more lower skill leveled players all session. So he likely would've had more of the old "top gun points". No biggie, just interesting to think about.)
And we could have both lost. Technically, there was one player who had a better Points Per Match than both of us, but she didn't play enough matches to qualify for the award, according to our local bylaws. Our LO requires that a player play in half the matches available during the session (rounding up if its an odd number of weeks, or down if there is a bye in the schedule during that session) and this girl only played in six matches, with a 2.33 average. Obviously it wasn't important to her, she wasn't even there the last week...