Thanks I always thought that the frozen ball was needed to be driven to a different rail
Rule Challenge!!!!!!
- Thread starter twoslo4me
- Start date
Thanks I always thought that the frozen ball was needed to be driven to a different rail
Foul... you have 6 cushions and 4 rails according to your description all the cue ball got after contact is another cushion..... I saw a similar shot like this one year at a BCA tournament and the ref. called foul.
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thats the way the old school guys i grew up with played...if the ball is frozen to a rail that rail is dead
I have always thought that also on a frozen ball, the cueball can't just hit the same rail, either the object ball or the cueball have to hit a different rail. Unless, the rule was if BOTH the cueball and object ball were frozen to the SAME rail. So you can't just hit them along the rail slowly. I am very certain this was in the rules I was reading when I started playing in the late 80s.
But I have recently read on here from several people that the cueball can hit that same rail and it's good off a frozen ball, you just can't double-kiss the object ball into the rail with the cueball not hitting the rail (hit the object ball full, it kisses into the cueball and bounces back to the same rail, cueball does not hit a rail after that double kiss).
This scenario would be completely fine as well, no foul. I posted the WPA ruling above a few posts ago.
ok here is one for yall to decipher,,,,OB is frozen to the rail and cueball is frozen to OB, is that rail a legal rail to drive the cueball to, i have a friend who says that rail becomes a dead rail and you have to drive the cueball to another rail to be a legal hit...??
Now this is an interesting one. It is quite clear that by the WPA rules that the rail is legal to drive the cueball to. How to actually do this without fouling though... I would think it is possible but not trivial. (The following together with the rules I posted above):
http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play#6.7
(Again, this link doesn't work directly. It was meant to take you to the rule Fouls 6.7)
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Same thing I posted and it looks like that would not be a legal hit, the balls would need to contact another ball and then go back to the rail (they can't curve out and back in).
Page 82 here http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook.aspx
7. Situation: Player A, with the 5-ball as a legal object ball, contacts the 5-ball, driving it
away from the cushion. Then, because of an imperfection in the table or other reason, the
5-ball returns to the same cushion without contacting another ball. Neither the cue ball
nor any other object ball contacts a cushion or is pocketed.
Ruling: Foul. To be legal, the 5-ball must contact a ball before returning to the
cushion it was frozen to at the beginning of the shot.
Thanks, Bob.
Will have to get me the updated 14.1 rules.
Thanks for your expertise.
That is a legal hit according WPA rules. The cue ball was not frozen to the rail prior to the shot, and as long as the cue ball hits the object ball first, and one ball is driven to the rail, it is a legal shot.
8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns.
-Jon Birger
8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns.
-Jon Birger
The ' frozen ball rule 'has been mis-understood for years. The ' dead rail ' is only dead to the ball that is frozen, not to any other balls on the table, including the cue ball. It gets confused when the cue ball AND the object ball are bothe frozen to the SAME rail. Now the rail is ' dead ' to both balls.
Now, has the rule been changed to say that the part of the rail inside the pocket is now a " rail ' ? The part that has a pocket facing on it?
Thanks
Now, has the rule been changed to say that the part of the rail inside the pocket is now a " rail ' ? The part that has a pocket facing on it?
Thanks
Or how @ it both are frozen on the same rail and you masse the cue ball which hits the object ball afterwhich the cue ball hits the (same) rail. The OB hits no other rail.
Good hit?
And that's when the fight started.
Good hit?
And that's when the fight started.
If you still don't understand this --- go to Dr. Dave's web site and take the referees test. This is one of the topics and there is a video explanation which is very clear. If you don't understand it then --- try bowling, it's fun also.
Or how @ it both are frozen on the same rail and you masse the cue ball which hits the object ball afterwhich the cue ball hits the (same) rail. The OB hits no other rail.
Good hit?
And that's when the fight started.
I think the rule I found in my post #29 is this situation. The rule state that the ball has to contact another ball then be driven back into the rail for it to be considered hitting the rail. They say if the ball leaves the rail, then due to a table roll or "other" reason goes back to the same rail, it's not a legal shot.
Two comments:
Rules change, so keeping up with the current rules is paramount (regardless of whether I agree with them or not!)
Rules change, so when someone asks about a rule, it's very possible that sometime say, longer than a year ago, that this particular rule had some base to it.
I get stunned at some of the answers here (actually, no, I'm not stunned).
The "rail is dead" if the object ball is frozen actually has existed in certain written rule sets. So has the "nurse three times, but not more" rule. So has the stalemate rule. So has the 20% off rule (which thankfully was stricken quickly).
I'm for advancing the rules of course. But, I'm also for history and the understanding. Sometimes, questions come up because there is a legitimate reason that people thought "this is the rule." Sometimes, of course, some rules were made up by bar bangers who want one more shot at the table.
Freddie <~~~ the question had merit
Rules change, so keeping up with the current rules is paramount (regardless of whether I agree with them or not!)
Rules change, so when someone asks about a rule, it's very possible that sometime say, longer than a year ago, that this particular rule had some base to it.
I get stunned at some of the answers here (actually, no, I'm not stunned).
The "rail is dead" if the object ball is frozen actually has existed in certain written rule sets. So has the "nurse three times, but not more" rule. So has the stalemate rule. So has the 20% off rule (which thankfully was stricken quickly).
I'm for advancing the rules of course. But, I'm also for history and the understanding. Sometimes, questions come up because there is a legitimate reason that people thought "this is the rule." Sometimes, of course, some rules were made up by bar bangers who want one more shot at the table.
Freddie <~~~ the question had merit
I remember playing in a 14.1 league (about 30 years ago) and some slightly unusual situation came up, like the break ball in the rack, and my opponent quoted a screwy rule. I allowed as to how the rule was never that way and he was talking goofy. He went out to his car and came back with the official BCA rule book and there was the goofy rule in black and white. Fortunately for my sanity the guy at the desk had a current rule book and the rule was as I remembered. It must have changed for only a year or so and my opponent had a copy of the old, broken rules.
I'm glad the WPA has decreed a 5-year period between changes.
I would strongly suggest to everybody who has written to this thead (and everybody else as well) to do this. This truly is a great explanation (with video) of the modern rules of pool (especially concerning the rail hit).
And for those who still wonder and maybe yearn for the olden days rules... think for a while, and you'll see why these rulings are the best possible rules for now.
Thank you Dr. Dave, and also Tennesseejoe for linking this.
Here is the quick link for the test:http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm
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