DRAW STROKE: Dropping your elbow or not.
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
this creates somewhat of an optical illusion and will appear different
Golf will give the answers better than pool. The basic issue is that human bodies are not made to play golf {or pool} so they must be trained to create the motion (it's unnatural to do correctly).....this creates somewhat of an optical illusion and will appear different depending on the bodies shape, size and even flexibility.
However, there are "common denominators" with the top caliber players that you can see if you focus on their foundation (feet) and upper body angles relative to the cue.
Golf will give the answers better than pool. The basic issue is that human bodies are not made to play golf {or pool} so they must be trained to create the motion (it's unnatural to do correctly).....this creates somewhat of an optical illusion and will appear different depending on the bodies shape, size and even flexibility.
However, there are "common denominators" with the top caliber players that you can see if you focus on their foundation (feet) and upper body angles relative to the cue.
You are confusing making any random motion with making coordinated movements. Top athletes don't make unnecessary motions, but they also don't limit their movements to the most simple motion possible. They coordinate their movements in a way that allows them to apply force with the least effort and most controlled motion possible. Due to the human body being a very complex machine not purpose-built to do the action we are trying to do, this most easily controllable low effort motion is seldom the simplest motion possible.
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Whatever. I'm not confusing, or confused, about anything in that post. Take the examples I made and use your own eyes. Economy of motion is most often most efficient. The human body is a machine. 99% of the time when designing a machine, the simplest with the least moving parts is the best, most reliable and longest lasting. Why do you think Nolan Ryan lasted so long even though he threw the ball as fast as he did? One of the simplest pitching motions with the least moving parts to ever play the game.
The human body wasn't naturally made to do anything other than breath, eat, drink, hunt for food, avoid predators and have sex. It wasn't naturally made to write or type. Or play any sport for that matter other than running. All other activities require training and repetition to achieve a high degree of expertise. So what's the point?
You talking about playing, or running out the door? Seems like Lassiter and Cornbread dabbled a little in the "real" gambling world.
If you look at nearly all the top players you will notice they are neither fat nor old. In fact I think you'll find good athletes that often visit the gym. Feijen, SVB, Hohmann, Appleton, Boyes etc. Guys have started to figure out that it can give them an edge just like they did in golf.
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Join me my brothers and sisters! Throw off the Yoke of the Pendulum!!!!
No you got it right CJ. I've been punishing myself for a long time with this pendulum nonsense. Very recently I chucked the pendulum stroke out the window and did whats feels right. Wow, it works. For my stroke, there is a rhythm that feels natural and unimpeded. I drop my elbow, I twist my forearm, I snap the butt against my wrist at the end of my stroke. Bingo... it's like magic.
It may hold true for the rest of the pool playing planet that they must suffer in agony during their stroke to get a ball in the pocket, but I'm so happy that I am the exception to the rule. I just started doing this a few days ago and feel like an immense fool for sticking to the pendulum with fundamentalist fervor.
May the pendulum rot in a special layer of perdition.
Lesh
No you got it right CJ. I've been punishing myself for a long time with this pendulum nonsense. Very recently I chucked the pendulum stroke out the window and did whats feels right. Wow, it works. For my stroke, there is a rhythm that feels natural and unimpeded. I drop my elbow, I twist my forearm, I snap the butt against my wrist at the end of my stroke. Bingo... it's like magic.
It may hold true for the rest of the pool playing planet that they must suffer in agony during their stroke to get a ball in the pocket, but I'm so happy that I am the exception to the rule. I just started doing this a few days ago and feel like an immense fool for sticking to the pendulum with fundamentalist fervor.
May the pendulum rot in a special layer of perdition.
Lesh
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Let me guess, you went back to playing the way you always did and back to your comfort zone.?
If you weren't confused in your post, why were you attacking a strawman (with sarcasm) that top athletes don't make unnecessary motions? Nobody is arguing that it is necessary to make unnecessary motions. The point everybody is making is efficiency in motion is primarily important and making only simple motions is not necessarily efficient, in fact, often times just the opposite. Not that I am an expert in baseball, but I highly doubt his pitching form was simple. Simple in the context of this thread would be if Nolan Ryan decided to throw pitches with just his forearm, having his shoulder, elbow, body, hips, etc. locked in place. I doubt that was the case as all baseball pitchers I am aware of coordinate the rest of their body in conjunction with their arm to generate a fast throw.
My point is that, because it is not built to do anything besides those you listed and because the human body does in fact excel at coordinating itself to do things not originally intended, it is faulty to assume that a simple, non coordinated motion is the optimum means towards accomplishing a complicated task that requires significant power and precision to fractions of a millimeter. If you want evidence pointing to the opposite case, just look at the power stroke of just about every top player who ever lived.
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.the human body was NOT made to play pool so "if it feels right, it's probably wrong"
That's well said......anyone that focuses on what the arm is doing rather than the cue is doomed..... to "Pool Perdition". :help:
The techniques that "look good on paper" or "sound good" are the ones least likely to be effective.....the human body was NOT made to play pool so "if it feels right, it's probably wrong".......playing great pool may "become" comfortable over time, but there's certainly some "pain" to get "the gain". 'The Game is the Teacher'
That's well said......anyone that focuses on what the arm is doing rather than the cue is doomed..... to "Pool Perdition". :help:
The techniques that "look good on paper" or "sound good" are the ones least likely to be effective.....the human body was NOT made to play pool so "if it feels right, it's probably wrong".......playing great pool may "become" comfortable over time, but there's certainly some "pain" to get "the gain". 'The Game is the Teacher'
Max is confused.
More power is generated by the longer backswing and the forward cue speed. the reaction is a product of the accuracy on the cue ball.
Relaxed arm muscles help generate speed and a relaxed grip keep the cue on it's intended path.
Dropped elbow does nothing but cushion the forward momentum.
More power is generated by the longer backswing and the forward cue speed. the reaction is a product of the accuracy on the cue ball.
Relaxed arm muscles help generate speed and a relaxed grip keep the cue on it's intended path.
Dropped elbow does nothing but cushion the forward momentum.
I agree with item 1, usually the momentum is required just before impact, due to delays between brain command and muscle action, one has to follow through to delay brain signal just a bit, otherwise one will begin stopping the cue before it hit CB, but due to the hands mass moving it would look like it is after the cb is gone.
2nd issue: How much follow through:
It depends on how long the bridge is, and your butt hand is positioned correctly, if it is long like SVB, no need to drop elbow, see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tShPFXN3wd8 at about 2:10
I agree on break shot you do need to drop the elbow, see above youtube.
If you hold cue lightly and your bridge is short you must drop elbow to gain high speed and in turn momentum to spin cb and accelerate it, if you do not the cue will be choked and brain orders hand to stop before you hit the CB and cause tremendous loss of power, and possibly tip to drop or miscue. If you hold but tight, no need to drop elbow, and bridge cab be very short for accuracy. [/COLOR]
.some of these "players" can't get the "logical" stuff out of their heads
The secret of acceleration (power stroke) is located in the hand, fingers and wrist.
You are making some valid points about the reality of the stroke....some of these "players" can't get the "logical" stuff out of their heads so they can experience what's effective.
What makes champion players so great is they don't do what seems correct, they do what is actually effective. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Masayoshi;4513513 My point is that said:
The secret of acceleration (power stroke) is located in the hand, fingers and wrist.
You are making some valid points about the reality of the stroke....some of these "players" can't get the "logical" stuff out of their heads so they can experience what's effective.
What makes champion players so great is they don't do what seems correct, they do what is actually effective. 'The Game is the Teacher'
No. I've always been told to play with a perfect unyielding staid, mechanically emotionless pendulum stroke from start to finish. I never deviated.... not even as a joke... Not even while drunk would I deviate from the almighty pendulum. It owned me completely. I was whipped like an MIT mathematician dating a Budweiser girl.
BUT NO MOAR!!!
Join me! Break free from the bonds of Pharaoh Pendulumenkhamen. Follow me into the desert. There will be fishes and loaves!
Lesh
+1.
The pendulum system is a crutch turning average players even more average over time. Just like any system it has some legitimate foundation that was taken to the nth degree and marketed (and then adopted and preached) by those that needed something to rely on. Golf and pool both have tons of get mediocre quick schemes. There is no "one size fits all" in terms of something that you have to physically perform. Although there is a lowest common denominator (because we all have common physical traits) - doing the same thing everyone else does is the definition of being average.
If you are marginally serious about pool - or anything in life really - you've tried different ways to get consistent results. But past the fundamental techniques basic to pool, in the end, it's the practice and dedication to your endeavor more than the system that provides the most benefit.
The pendulum stroke isn't what makes people objectively good at pool. Being good at pool is.
-td
Lee Brett brought this up to me in our lessons we had and I am glad I switched to the drop. It's made a lot of things easier.
I'm FINALLY getting around to "uncrowding" myself in my stance and trying to completely re-do my whole stance and kind of my stroke again. Dismantling it little by little to re-fix it the right way.
When I was dropping my elbow before on this stuff my elbow would come out to my right because of how crowded I was. Now I've been trying to mimic how Shane holds and stands with his cue so I don't have anything interrupting or intruding in my stroke.
Getting easier by the day.... Still got a lot of work to do but I'll get there :thumbup: I know that much for sure.
Hey Mark, does Mr. Wilson describe a stroke or style of grip in his new book that he "says" would take less hours or is easier than the others?
You know me, I'm not trying to be a smartass but just asking an honest question. I haven't read or seen anything about the book.
Hope your Christmas was well man. Happy new year also.
I'm FINALLY getting around to "uncrowding" myself in my stance and trying to completely re-do my whole stance and kind of my stroke again. Dismantling it little by little to re-fix it the right way.
When I was dropping my elbow before on this stuff my elbow would come out to my right because of how crowded I was. Now I've been trying to mimic how Shane holds and stands with his cue so I don't have anything interrupting or intruding in my stroke.
Getting easier by the day.... Still got a lot of work to do but I'll get there :thumbup: I know that much for sure.
Hey Mark, does Mr. Wilson describe a stroke or style of grip in his new book that he "says" would take less hours or is easier than the others?
You know me, I'm not trying to be a smartass but just asking an honest question. I haven't read or seen anything about the book.
Hope your Christmas was well man. Happy new year also.
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This one is by Max Eberle and is quite interesting. If you want to consider different ways to draw your cue ball, click on this link.
Maybe one of the whiney ass, anonymous *****es will go begging to have this thread moved to.
JoeyA
Elbow Drop:
it doesn t matter, if you re aligned perfectly- and IF <-- you have a really perfect timing.
If you re aligned perfectly and this also having a super timing- then elbow drop will not really damage something.
This discussion usually ends in one of those cyber wars. As soon as someone throwing "facts" into the ring.....the war begins.
Max Eberle has anyway strong fundamentals- and he s not the typical *elbow-dropper*. If someone would have observed him really long, he would see it.
As soon as Max executing a shot which requires a real high acceleration, he drops the elbow- that s right- but i would say 90 % plus of the time at or after the contact with the cueball. And because he s one of those guys, who is aligned SUPERB (almost perfect all the time), he is able to just let the *upperarm incl elbow* follow..........-- he can do this, because it s following into the same direction as the forearm was/is pointing.
What i really ask myself: What kind of discussion did you expect Joey?
Really curious.
See @ 14:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U9C4x0IggY
These guys play on a professional size table
12 x 6 :grin:
With professional size pockets
3.33" :grin::grin:
And the old guy is in his 50s :grin::grin::grin:
More examples - They call it "screw back"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWcrQf5MA7E
To quote a world champion
" Snooker is all about keeping the same action for every shot, regardless of what type of shot it is.
It's about good technique. Get that right, and the rest of your game follows."
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