APA Rules Question - Pushing through

M

maxeypad2007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If a player simply goes up to the table where the cue ball is frozen to another ball in APA 8-ball and just jams the stick through the balls to break them up is it a foul or something else beyond a foul?

even though everyone around the guy said "thats going to be a foul" it was obviously an intentional foul playing a weaker player who can't run out.

I just assume this is a foul and the other player gets ball in hand. One guy one the sidelines said this is blatant unsportsmanlike conduct (which is highly debatable).

What is the correct call here? We know its a foul but is it anything else?
 
to clarify he just jammed his cue straight through the balls with a lot of force with the cue stick hitting multiiple object balls in addition to the cue ball.

Imagine the most obvious push under the sun. He also was shooting an object ball that is not his (foul also).
 
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Imagine this scenario where the shooter is solids. The player just jams his cue through the cluster and an object ball pockets the seven instead of elevating. The other player gets cue ball in hand but can't run out (a skill level 3 at best). I'm not arguing the ethics of the situation I just wonder what the correct ruling is.
 
I think it would just be ball in hand. Also, I would love for my opponent to hit a foul and break up all the clusters every time he got up to the table (not to mention kicking the 8 in on a fluke once in a while with that type of shot).
 
I think according to the book this will NOT be called a foul - that whole push shot thing, but balls truly frozen is a reasonably rare thing. As well, a "sportsmanship" violation is pretty subjective. It's my thought that the accusation of a sportsmanship violation is just as likely to be a sportsmanship violation as the reason for the accusation. As I understand it, what one would consider to be a sportsmanship violation should be reported to the league office so they can determine whether or not it is actually a violation and if there is a disagreement, maybe like a sportsmanship violation, you're supposed to not sign the score sheet, write the protest and the reason for the protest on the back and pay your protest fee, I believe it's $25. The office will rule and return (supposedly) money if the protest is sustained.
Personally, I think it's a foul, but I don't write the rules and the APA has made it clear they don't want any help from me or any of us with them. It's just one of those things that makes the APA a little "iffy" sometimes
 
Depends if the ball frozen to the cue ball is his ball or not. If it's the opponent's ball, it's a foul, if it's his own ball, no foul, since it's okay to shoot through if the balls are completely frozen together according to WPA rules.

WPA rule 6.7
...if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot
towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball.
 
The real question here isn't whether or not its a good hit. The player INTENTIONALLY JAMMED THE CUE THROUGH AND USED HIS CUE TIP TO CONTACT OBJECT BALLS (balls other than the cue ball) TO POCKET HIS BALL ON AN ILLEGAL SHOT.

The push thing is subjected when its close but we aren't talking about elevating or anything like that. I mean an intentionally JAM THROUGH using a cue to make the balls like in the diagram I posted.
 
Speaking from the BCA perspective:

If you have 2 balls frozen touching, you can push through them as long as there is no double hit with the cue stick and the cue ball does not follow the ball it was frozen to.... the CB has to go on a different trajectory. This would be a legal hit. Just smack the snot out of them and scowl intimidatingly at your opponent so they feel wronged and unsure of what to do next.

Lesh
 
Your link doesn't work for me, but like other ppl have said here alrdy, if the cue ball is frozen to another ball it is legal to PUSH THROUGH the cue ball with a steady solid stroke as long as a double hit doesn't take place. Whether or not the cue is elevated has no relevance. I think you're confusing it with another rule that if the cue ball is within a certain distance of an object ball (but not frozen) the shooter must elevate his cue to make an attempt at not dbl kissing the cue ball. The league rules get changed at the drop of dime so it's hard to keep up with all that b.s.
P.S. I don't think that league has object ball fouls, just cue ball fouls but I'd check the rule book to make sure GL! :thumbup:

And a P.P.S. I'm sure you know if someone doesn't call a third party to watch the hit the call as to whether it was a foul or not always goes to the shooter.
 
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Jersey raises a good point: What does the shooter say?
Is it your opinion that he just jammed it through, or does the shooter acknowlege this?
 
victorl said:
Depends if the ball frozen to the cue ball is his ball or not. If it's the opponent's ball, it's a foul, if it's his own ball, no foul, since it's okay to shoot through if the balls are completely frozen together according to WPA rules.

WPA rule 6.7
...if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot
towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball.
Click to expand...


I'm a bit confused.

Are the rules here saying I can literally just push through straight because they're frozen???

Like if this were the cue

|----------o (cb)(ob) ---->

If I were to push straight through the cue ball would go flying forwards... Because you are literally pushing it. I consider that a foul as you are touching the tip to the cb more than once most likely or are forcing it through.

Now if you're hitting at a totally different angle it should be fine most of the time.

We had a situation where the co-captain on my APA team (sl 3-4) had the situation above arise and I tried to tell him that hitting that way would be a foul. The other teams sl 7 acknowledged what I was saying and was agreeing with me that simply pushing through the balls and sending the cue ball forward is indeed a foul.

However our co-captain still insisted he was right and it was okay that there was no rule against it in the APA book.


I tried to tell him that in any real world situation in pool outside of APA it is a foul. But he doesn't really care about pool so it didn't matter to him.

The guy he was playing didn't care either so it wasn't ball in hand.
 
There is no foul in APA for pushing through. The rulebook claims it is too difficult to call so they just eliminate the option. Leaves more room for amateurs. The shooter jamming his ball in is also not a foul. People can submit the incident for a sportsmanship violation, but that's it.

No foul was on. No double-hit or 'push shot' fouls exist in APA. No object ball fouls exist, either.
 
If the balls are frozen you are allowed to push straight through, and yes the cue ball will me moving at the same speed as the object ball.
There are those who don't like it, but that's how it's played in the Apa.
There are videos with high speed cameras showing that pushing through doesn't always/likely make a double hit. If the balls are not frozen but close you most certainly double hit.

Btw, the poster is saying that the player obviously fouled for multiple reasons that have nothing to do with the balls being frozen, or near frozen.
The player followed through and made contact with other balls on the table.
It's hard to get more then BIH in that situation. The league operator should be told if for nothing else to just keep an eye on the guy.
You'd likely need the operator present during that foul to get a harsher punishment than BIH.
In Vegas with ref watching I'd guess he'd at least forfeit that rack.
 
CantEverWin said:
Btw, the poster is saying that the player obviously fouled for multiple reasons that have nothing to do with the balls being frozen, or near frozen.
The player followed through and made contact with other balls on the table.
It's hard to get more then BIH in that situation. The league operator should be told if for nothing else to just keep an eye on the guy.
You'd likely need the operator present during that foul to get a harsher punishment than BIH.
In Vegas with ref watching I'd guess he'd at least forfeit that rack.
Click to expand...

Except, none of that is a foul in APA. So no penalty would result at all.
 
This is one of the most awkward and least understood rules in pool. Under the World Standardized Rules if the balls are frozen you are allowed to stroke into them with a free stroke of the cue. However, the shot could still be ruled a push shot if it was determined by the referee (in a formal match) that the cue tip stayed in contact with the cueball longer than on a normal free stroke of the cue.

Under APA rules the rulebook states the following: PUSH SHOTS: A push shot involves a situation where the cue ball is frozen to
the object ball. The problem faced by the shooter is to keep from pushing or
keeping the tip of the cue on the cue ball. It looks bad and is generally thought of
as illegal. Push shots are controversial. Push shots will not be called in this
amateur League. Even the professional players cannot agree about what is and
isn’t a push shot. In general, you can lessen your chances of being accused of
shooting a push shot by hitting the cue ball into the object ball at an angle, or by
elevating the butt of your cue about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the
length of the follow through which is the principal cause of a push shot. Players
who repeatedly guide the cue ball with force through object balls that are frozen
to the cue ball, using a level cue and long follow through, may be subject to a
sportsmanship penalty.

So basically wail away with impunity.
 
maxeypad2007 said:
to clarify he just jammed his cue straight through the balls with a lot of force with the cue stick hitting multiiple object balls in addition to the cue ball.

Imagine the most obvious push under the sun. He also was shooting an object ball that is not his (foul also).
Click to expand...

That ^ is a blatant foul and should be loss of game. Just fouling is OK, fouling then then using additional damage to the layout with more illegal strokes (hitting other balls with the stick) is conduct that warrants a game penalty. There are several replies here but they are just focusing on the push shot, not the additional fact that the guy tried to just mess up the table layout with his cue. It's like "well sir, I accidentally shot him with my gun while cleaning it" "Ok, accident then, 1 yr probation" "Phew that's good to hear your honor, the other 5 bullets that I shot him with while cleaning the gun are also the same penalty then as well right?"

If he just did an illegal hit on the cueball and object ball, it would be just a regular foul. Deliberate but controlled fouls without trying to re-arrange the table with the cue stick are perfectly fine, the player chooses to accept the penalty for the foul if he/she thinks the alternatives may be worse.

For example if you need to kick at a low % attempt and there are clusters in the area of the other ball. Instead of going for the kick and possibly breaking out the clusters for the other guy you may choose to just tap the cueball and give the other person ball in hand and have them work on dealing with the clusters.
 
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Mitchxout said:
I 100% agree with you but the APA doesn't. :nono:
Click to expand...

No? Not even on someone sweeping balls around with the side of the cue? So if I have all my balls on the table, the other guy only has the 8, I can walk up to the table, and just herd some balls round the 8 with my cue not even hitting the cueball so the other guy can't make it and just give him ball in hand? That is OK in the APA?
 
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