Handicapping has ruined the SPORT!

In the 60s, 70s, and 80s the game looked like it had a chance to get big,
like golf did.
There was a lot of action in pool, just like golf in the 50s.

The majority of the big action involved HANDICAPS.

...the ones who felt everybody should play even were very rarely in action.
 
In the 60s, 70s, and 80s the game looked like it had a chance to get big,
like golf did.
There was a lot of action in pool, just like golf in the 50s.

The majority of the big action involved HANDICAPS.

...the ones who felt everybody should play even were very rarely in action.

I haven't been playing for too long, but I can definitely get a game faster when handicaps are used. Most of the people I play would be under an apa 7 and they know better than to try me even for a few bucks. If they get their apa spot, though, they may get ballsy and play. If I offer them an additional spot, it's almost more of matter of there being a table available for a full match. Even some decent players will be quick to match up if given a near inconsequential spot. Knowing how to handicap is half the battle. Remember, give them what they want, not what they need.
 
It's also worth noting that as far as leagues go, there are some out there where intentional sandbagging is counter-productive.

In NAPA for instance, if you win your rating goes up, if you lose it goes down. There's no way to "game" that system: You can't win and keep your rating down unlike other leagues.

I don't know if it's common throughout, but our NAPA division is "no-limit" so we don't have to worry about meeting some arbitrary SL cap and our players can get as good as they want without breaking up teams.

Just curious (in other words, a serious question; not being a butthead), how does that system work in the playoffs?

It seems like if a player intentionally lost all or most of his/her matches during the session, had a low rating, then turned up the heat for the playoffs...before their rating could have time to get up to where it should be, the damage would already have been done.

Not familiar with NAPA, so could you explain how that scenario is averted???

Maniac
 
Just curious (in other words, a serious question; not being a butthead), how does that system work in the playoffs?

It seems like if a player intentionally lost all or most of his/her matches during the session, had a low rating, then turned up the heat for the playoffs...before their rating could have time to get up to where it should be, the damage would already have been done.

Not familiar with NAPA, so could you explain how that scenario is averted???

Maniac


Our session playoffs -- and again, I don't know how other NAPA divisions do it or how much leeway each LO has -- are usually the top four teams in a two week playoff. The winning team of that "post season" gets cash. We only have three matches per night (I've heard other areas play 5) so if you're always losing one because someone is dumping, then your team is probably not going to get into the playoffs to begin with.

My local NAPA is fairly small and most of the players are pretty serious about improving or if not improving at least playing their best all the time. We also play laggers choice, so on any given week you may be playing 8, 9, or 10 ball and you have different ratings for each game so losing every week can have less impact because it's spread across three games.

I don't remember if the results of playoff matches affects ratings or not... I haven't been in them recently. :o So there are probably ways to game it to get cash but there's no "las vegas carrot" dangling out there.

For what it's worth, in NAPA the Annual Championship is NOT team-based. You qualify and play as individuals. How do you qualify?

* Top points winner on your team
* Member of the first place team (during the regular session)
* Captain of the Team
* Top Female points (I think)
 
Just curious (in other words, a serious question; not being a butthead), how does that system work in the playoffs?

It seems like if a player intentionally lost all or most of his/her matches during the session, had a low rating, then turned up the heat for the playoffs...before their rating could have time to get up to where it should be, the damage would already have been done.

Not familiar with NAPA, so could you explain how that scenario is averted???

Maniac

The more I think about this, the more I realize that there are probably ways to do it. If you have a 5-man team, losing every week or a just a lot of weeks, wouldn't have as much as an impact on the team. And if the division is big enough, it would be less likely that it would be noticed...

Gee... thanks for destroying the dream. ;)
 
The more I think about this, the more I realize that there are probably ways to do it. If you have a 5-man team, losing every week or a just a lot of weeks, wouldn't have as much as an impact on the team. And if the division is big enough, it would be less likely that it would be noticed...

Gee... thanks for destroying the dream. ;)


Sorry....wasn't my intention. :frown:

FWIW...I too have played in leagues where every player in the league took pride in playing you as hard as they possibly could...no sandbagging. It was the most enjoyable league I have ever played in, and gave me a small sense of accomplishment when I did well in it.

Maniac
 
Very interesting thread, regarding not only what happened in the past but what is the future going to be.
Handicapping is one major factor that influenced changes in Pool, change of rules and spread of knowlegde being the two other major ones along with increase in recreation possibilities in the last two decades.

It is true that with modern formats players have to be "stronger" mentally, or at least more patient since alternate breaks do not allow rhythm build up and thus the confidence factor between the better player and the weaker one is minimized, even more when there is handicap involved. Although some of the better players (the ones that have adapted) still survive in the long run, the weaker ones don't have to do the kind of effort needed in the past in order to beat them. The new players have no images of the past so they are already coming into the game in that kind of thinking.

Back in the old days pressure factor was different, you knew that if you missed a shot you could be easily sitting in your chair for 20min, only to come back at the table for trying to pull out a difficult resafe, meaning that could be your last visit there. So in order to get to win you had to really work on your game, there was no easy way to get by the shots needed unless you knew exactly what you were doing, no second chances were available since you wouldn't be breaking next rack even if you lost the frame. As in all things that require hard work Pool had more respect, the pros had more respect, Pool was really a sport in tournament manner that promoted excellence.

Gambling was always there, in any kind of form, but gambling has always been an almost completely separate world in Pool, no need to get into that.

What happened then, besides more reacreation, that led to format changes?
The best players performed better constantly, and unfortunately there was no good spread of prize money so the less good players (which were still very good players) could not follow the tournaments anymore, the same applies for the weaker ones which were still coming to play for the fun of it.

So format changes were applied and participations increased once more.
But let's be honest, there may be more "game players today" since anyone can beat anyone but less "students of the game-athletes" compared to the past. So yes, maybe the game got better, not sure about the sport though.. Proof? Look at Mosconi cup. Most of the European teams come from the "student of sport era", while the opposite stands for the USA team which is trying to go back to that philosophy now. Even the US team members which also come from the "student of sport era" still stand out "like a fly in milk" compared to others, and any of the young players which is of that mentality is still definitely better.

There is a great responsibility in the market side of it, promoters, companies, club owners. While their work cannot be ignored, they haven't done what was supposed to do to promote Pool as a sport. The format changes suited them fine since their casual customer-game players have increased without any significant effort. The players on the other hand got used to winning situations without the hard personal work required in the past, and generally most players of all times played Pool without thinking about next day. There was also no real effort to distinguish tournament play and market profit, and since there was no real hard work kind of thinking in that part too, tournament play was adapted to immediate profit. The results have not settled yet, and it's kind of a relative to many factors situation, but nobody is certain what will be the case in a few years.

So, in making a summary on this, yes, changes have helped the game, but damaged the sport.
And hell, the sport era was way more beautiful than today..
Petros
 
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Very well stated Petros,The Sport was more respected!

Back in the old days pressure factor was different, you knew that if you missed a shot you could be easily sitting in your chair for 20min, only to come back at the table for trying to pull out a difficult resafe, meaning that could be your last visit there. So in order to get to win you had to really work on your game, there was no easy way to get by the shots needed unless you knew exactly what you were doing, no second chances were available since you wouldn't be breaking next rack even if you lost the frame. As in all things that require hard work Pool had more respect, the pros had more respect, Pool was really a sport in tournament manner that promoted excellence.
 
What was it like hunting the T-Rex? :eek:

People used to get dressed up to get on a plane, we get it. If you didn't know how to operate a computer and use a modem, you didn't get on the internet.. what little bit there was.

If you want to sit in your chair for 20 min between shots, just play one-pocket. :thumbup:

I'd like to know how many of the people that dislike handicaps are taking down non-handicapped tournaments. Sort of reminds me of all the APA-knockers that pop up, but have their hands full with a mediocre player.
 
I happen to agree with the OP. Is paying $50 for a round of golf donating or paying for the experience? I'd rather pay $50 or less on a non-handicapped event that I can't win versus a cheaper handicapped event that I can. More than that, I simply pass.

Sent from my Galaxy S4
 
I happen to agree with the OP. Is paying $50 for a round of golf donating or paying for the experience? I'd rather pay $50 or less on a non-handicapped event that I can't win versus a cheaper handicapped event that I can. More than that, I simply pass.

Sent from my Galaxy S4

Good point, please allow me to add that there is simply no money substitude for winning straight-up against a pro player after hard work and a great performance..
 
The problem is not many people are willing to pay money to get into an open tourney to go 2 and out. They don't see it as a learning experience only as donating. David I am assuming that you are the older guy in the videos you have posted. The sad reallity is that in most open tourneys you wouldn't do very well judging by the videos you have posted. How often do you play in open tourneys? How well do you normally do? I don't care for the handicapping either but its because I hate giving up so many games on the wire to other players. I wish that we had just straight race tourneys but not many people will play unless they are handicapped. I don't blame them and then again I do. I had to play stronger players to get better and play even. My dad would have beat my butt if he heard me ask for weight! It was a step up or sit down way around here where I learned to play. It made me put in the hours and hours of play time just so that I could beat the old guys. Now when I ask someone to play the first words out of their mouth is how are we gonna play??? It is what it is.
 
I agree with OP's perspective. Not that i do tournaments yet, but i play tournament players when i can because it makes me step up and seriously helps my game. If you love the game, and want to improve, you will be thrilled for the chance to watch a guy run you out whemever you make a mistake. Id rather get my butt handed to me all day than to win with handicaps. And then when i finally do win some well deserved games, it was all me. That feels good
 
handicaping

Kid Delicious played in C tournaments, then as a B, then an A, then open and then pro and he did it all in about 4-5 yrs. Didnt slow his development at all.

That is very true We used to take him From Marboro to Castle to Clifton to West end All mainly handicapped :-)
 
That's kind of the point. It's making everything equal. So the guys who work hard at the game to get better aren't rewarded for it and the people who haven't are rewarded. It's welfare for pool players. I'm sure the liberals love it! lol and yeah your gonna have your hands full with a mediocre player in apa when I have to spot him 30 or 40 balls. lol If I played him even my experience and ability wouldn't give him a chance.


What was it like hunting the T-Rex? :eek:

People used to get dressed up to get on a plane, we get it. If you didn't know how to operate a computer and use a modem, you didn't get on the internet.. what little bit there was.

If you want to sit in your chair for 20 min between shots, just play one-pocket. :thumbup:

I'd like to know how many of the people that dislike handicaps are taking down non-handicapped tournaments. Sort of reminds me of all the APA-knockers that pop up, but have their hands full with a mediocre player.
 
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That's kind of the point. It's making everything equal. So the guys who work hard at the game to get better aren't rewarded for it and the people haven't are rewarded. It's welfare for pool players. I'm sure the liberals love it! lol and yeah your gonna have your hands full with a mediocre player in apa when I have to spot him 30 or 40 balls. lol If I played him even my experience ability would destroy him

Rewarded for it how? Why not having flyweights fight the heavyweights? After all, they should be rewarded for being bigger and hitting harder.

You know what welfare for pool players is? Expecting people to hand over money for nothing. That's welfare.

I learned to play through the bar and APA. One thing I never got into was acting like a jackass to others because they didn't want to spend all of their time on a pool table.

I spot mediocre players 30 or 40 all the time.. and then I give them an additional spot. I'm pretty sure I'm up in that scenario. Next, I'll be spotting them 2 s/l and so on. I've been playing for 9 years and that's been plenty of time to see how "big players" turn into crawfish when they find they can't win. Just a lot of talk, imho.
 
In order to estimate things we should compare relevant situations.
Pool has nothing to do with physical strength.
Adapting play in a way that the inferior player gets better chances to win makes it a game or a gamble.
Allowing excellence through hard work to prevail makes it a sport.
 
Scottie Townsend

No matter what he had to give up he seemed to finish on top at the end of the day. Everyone thought they could get him with a handicap. Propaganda. If you are hitting them it doesn't matter. The balls not your opponent.
Nick :)
 
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