I am told I have an old Joss West shaft, but it will not fit on my 5/16x14 Predator.

J

justinb386

Banned
I just purchased this shaft from an AZ member on here, and was told that it is an old Joss West shaft (and that it has a 5/16x14 joint), but the shaft will not completely screw on to my Predator butt.

I think that it goes a little over half way before it gets stuck.

I have added a couple of pictures of the shaft (just to show what the shaft looks like), and a picture of how far I was able to screw the shaft on to my Predator butt.

Can anyone tell me why the shaft will not screw all the way on?

This kind of reminds me of a Schon shaft not being able to screw on to a 5/16x14 butt (like a Joss butt for example).

Is it possible that the shaft will only fit a Joss West butt, or is the joint different from a 5/16x14?

Thanks for any opinions or facts about this issue.
 

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For starters, not all 5/16 -14s or 18s or 3/8-10s are alike. There's thread pitch to take into account too.

Stroud used screws during some periods that were unique in thread design.

Kevin
 
Kevin is correct

The olderJosswest pins used a finer 5/16-14 thread. Dont try to force it, you will mess up the brass insert.
 
I only have experience with Schon's but this is my opinion of the situation. All Schon cues use a 5/16-14 pin. Older shafts fit very snug on a newer butt to the point I wont try to thread them on.
I believe - this is just my opinion - that Bob was making his own pins and inserts back then. I believe the pins and inserts were on the small end of the tolerance.
So - and this is just the most reasonable explanation I can come up with - The older shafts fit snug because the hardware was made in shop and measures on the undersized limit of 5/16-14.
I think it has to do with how deep the threads are cut in the insert and how tall the threads are cut in the pin.

I guess if older Joss cues are the same way - old shafts dont thread on newer pins - maybe both cue makers were buying parts from the same supplier back then.
 
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justinb386 said:
I just purchased this shaft from an AZ member on here, and was told that it is an old Joss West shaft (and that it has a 5/16x14 joint), but the shaft will not completely screw on to my Predator butt.

I think that it goes a little over half way before it gets stuck.

I have added a couple of pictures of the shaft (just to show what the shaft looks like), and a picture of how far I was able to screw the shaft on to my Predator butt.

Can anyone tell me why the shaft will not screw all the way on?

This kind of reminds me of a Schon shaft not being able to screw on to a 5/16x14 butt (like a Joss butt for example).

Is it possible that the shaft will only fit a Joss West butt, or is the joint different from a 5/16x14?

Thanks for any opinions or facts about this issue.
Click to expand...
What is the deal with the joint collar and the ferrule. They both look like they are not completely seated. The collar looks like it is coming off.
 
MoonshineMattK said:
I only have experience with Schon's but this is my opinion of the situation. All Schon cues use a 5/16-14 pin. Older shafts fit very snug on a newer butt to the point I wont try to thread them on.
I believe - this is just my opinion - that Bob was making his own pins and inserts back then. I believe the pins and inserts were on the small end of the tolerance.
So - and this is just the most reasonable explanation I can come up with - The older shafts fit snug because the hardware was made in shop and measures on the undersized limit of 5/16-14.
I think it has to do with how deep the threads are cut in the insert and how tall the threads are cut in the pin.

I guess if older Joss cues are the same way - old shafts dont thread on newer pins - maybe both cue makers were buying parts from the same supplier back then.
Click to expand...


Different pins have different thread pitches and different shapes. There are more factors to fit than just thread count.
 
The wood itself might have come from Bill's shop - at one point - nobody could really tell you with certainty.

But "Joss West shaft" this aint!!

The ferrule has been replaced. By a hack...

The shaft collar looks like it came from another shaft and someone forced it on. Again, a hacker with even less skill.

So how much did you pay for this Frankenstein of a shaft?

If you grow tomatoes, at least it will have a purpose.

Otherwise, well, kindling wood maybe??

Oh, back to the question - Kevin answered it perfectly. "5/16x14" is NOT a standard. It only measure the diameter and thread count per inch. Length and pitch (angle of threads) can widely vary.

-von
 
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VonRhett, I think you are mostly right. I am the one who sold this shaft (for not much at all BTW). I bought this shaft from another AZB member a couple of years ago and was told it was a JW shaft. The collar was not even connected and to boot it was slightly out of round on the outside diameter. I figured someone had broken something and had had it replaced or fixed by a "hacker with not much skill". Or maybe even had had the thread insert changed to fit his cue. Who knows?

Anyway, I took it to a friend who does very good repair work, and he was able to reshape the outside diameter and re-attach the collar so it fit my 1994 joss cue almost perfectly. I never had a problem with the shaft - I just didn't care for the smaller diameter (about 12 mm).

The wood in this shaft is very good. It is dead straight and there are many growth rings per inch. So I think it may have originally been a JW shaft. I wish it had been closer to 13 mm I would have kept it for sure.

As far as the ferrule, yeah it's not great, and probably not original, but it plays fine and is not loose at all.

Anyway, if someone can help Justin out with any ideas to make it fit or that it won't ever fit, I've already told him I will be OK with whatever he decides.

Neither of the shafts I sold him fit his predator butt, but they fit my 1994 Joss perfectly. Must be a difference in the threads somehow.

VonRhett said:
The wood itself might have come from Bill's shop - at one point - nobody could really tell you with certainty.

But "Joss West shaft" this aint!!

The ferrule has been replaced. By a hack...

The shaft collar looks like it came from another shaft and someone forced it on. Again, a hacker with even less skill.

So how much did you pay for this Frankenstein of a shaft?

If you grow tomatoes, at least it will have a purpose.

Otherwise, well, kindling wood maybe??

Oh, back to the question - Kevin answered it perfectly. "5/16x14" is NOT a standard. It only measure the diameter and thread count per inch. Length and pitch (angle of threads) can widely vary.

-von
Click to expand...
 
Some older cues were made with pins that are not a full 5/16" wide. If the inserts are mated to those screws, they won't fit a full 5/16" screw. I have been told twice (once by a great cue maker/repairman who I trust) that older Schon screws were smaller than 5/16". Bill Schick cues are another example. As mentioned by others, there are other potential issues such as thread angle, etc. Anything can be repaired. But the cost might exceed the value of this shaft.
 
Bill used a 5/16 -14 acme thread some times. It has a square thread instead of pointed thread. Do a google search on acme threads you will see the difference. The two won't fit even though they are 5/16-14.
 
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