God is not going to help you win your match!

fasted71465 said:
How long has earth been here?
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Depends on who you ask.

Believers? The Earth is only 6,000 years old and is the result of intelligent design -- created within the recordable (readable/writable/tellable) history of the human species. The readership can decide for themselves whether they believe that or not.

Non-believers? The Earth is 4.54 billion years old according to scientific and mathematical data.

You decide.
-Sean
 
shinobi said:
Who is hiding? If someone makes a comment, religious or otherwise, people tend to reply sometimes. And sometimes not ;)

As for trying to "convince folks why they're wrong", good luck with that. I have never seen posts on a forum alter someone's belief system and I don't expect to see it anytime soon. I just see it as people posting their own opinions and that's fine. This thread has stayed civil, no? Can't ask any more than that.
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That's true -- this thread has been civil for sure. My point was that the zeal and fervor of atheists going after (or "responding to," if we're trying to be in an evasively-politically-correct mood) the expressions of the believers, is itself rooted in more than just non-belief.

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
That's true -- this thread has been civil for sure. My point was that the zeal and fervor of atheists going after (or "responding to," if we're trying to be in an evasively-politically-correct mood) the expressions of the believers, is itself rooted in more than just non-belief.

-Sean
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No offense Sean, but I don't believe the Athiest's here were going after anyone, now or in the past. The same cannot be said about Christianity. For the record, I'm Agnostic, so I don't belong to either side, I'm just the "middle man" with no dog in the fight. But here is a little info about "pushing their beliefs" onto others. If you have something about Atheists, please post yours, because I will read it. But you can read this list with an open mind, and decide for yourself who is doing the "pushing" of their beliefs. Here is the short list due to time constraints: I think you can understand the Atheists being a little "touchy" on this subject, not to mention the Jews, Pagans and Native Americans and anyone else that got in "their" way.

As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed, and by the end of the 6th century thousands of pagan’s were slain, including woman and children, all in the name of God.

Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in AD 782 had 4,500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded.

First Crusade: AD 1095 on command of Catholic Pope Urban II.

Battle of Askalon, AD 1099, over 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ

In 1572, in France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of Pope Pius V. Until
17th century over 200,000 flee area.

From the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged

Council of Toledo, AD 694. Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized.

The Bishop of Limoges (France) in AD 1010 had the cities Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed

In 1257 to 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated for not converting.

In 1389, In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered for not converting

In 648, Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain

Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.

Columbus planted a cross, that stated as follows: Certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him"

Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then Catholic Pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
 
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Folks:

<tisk, tisk> Just FYI, all I did was point a finger at the "but I'm merely responding to the blind faith of believers!" stance, to show that it is faulty. The need to "shoot holes" in a religious person's expression of faith, is itself, a faulty stance -- no matter how you slice it. Sure, it's easy to put up the "but I'm just expressing my opinion" shield.

If you must know, I myself am NOT a religious person. Those that know me, know how much of a scientific person I am. Just read my answer above to the person that asked how old the earth is (post #81). If you read between the lines, you should immediately see which side of the "faith/science" side I'm on. It's no secret. But at the same time, I'm not jumping in and trying to counter religious folks' expression of faith. I personally feel the people that "need" to do that, are trying to accomplish something -- and that "something" is very clear. It's a "need to convince," and quite possibly, convert.

In a jovial sense, I'm actually surprised at how sensitive atheist folks are when it's pointed out to them that their need to respond to believers' expression of faith (especially e.g. to shoot holes in it or to counter any points) is itself a religious act -- anti, of course, but in the vein of "responding to religion" nonetheless.

Anyway, that's the last post I'll make on this topic. I'm not particularly interested in a running debate with folks that took offense to having a mirror held up in front of them. My points are clear, and I'm satisfied with that.

-Sean <-- whose only "religion" is living life to the fullest, and having a positive effect on his fellow human beings to be remembered as a good guy
 
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sfleinen said:
Folks:


Anyway, that's the last post I'll make on this topic. I'm not particularly interested in a running debate with folks that took offense to having a mirror held up in front of them. My points are clear, and I'm satisfied with that.

-Sean <-- whose only "religion" is living life to the fullest, and having a positive effect on his fellow human beings to be remembered as a good guy
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Who took offense ? The only one that held up a mirror was history, with the murders through out the centuries. Your mirror consisted of complaining about Atheist's pushing their agenda, when history has clearly shown NOT to be the case. You actually had no "points" only an opinion that was proved to be false, and by a wide margin.

Again, I'm not debating God's existence, only that it is NOT atheists that are pushing their views through out history.

I'm married to a person of faith, and have no problem with it at all being agnostic. And I will defend someone's right to follow their religion. But also defend an atheists point of view without be accused so absurdly that they are pushing their "views" on anyone.

Again, an honest discussion without any verbal jabs or fist pounding, which is not a bad thing sometimes on this touchy subject. Now if this gets moved to NPR, I'm out :)
 
Since the topic touches on the question of the efficacy of prayer. I think it is appropriate to link to this Harvard University scientific study, the largest study of its kind and considered the most rigorous.

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

The conclusion is paradoxical: There is no effect of prayer at all and there is in fact more complications that arose in the group of patients prayed for.

_____________________________________


If atheism is a religion then Off is a TV channel - Anon
 
sfleinen said:
<tisk, tisk> Just FYI, all I did was point a finger at the "but I'm merely responding to the blind faith of believers!" stance, to show that it is faulty. The need to "shoot holes" in a religious person's expression of faith, is itself, a faulty stance -- no matter how you slice it. Sure, it's easy to put up the "but I'm just expressing my opinion" shield.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying, but I find your approach to be a little puzzling.

You are ignoring posts that disagreed with your original claim (that atheists are zealots akin to those who push religion). And to boost your own stance, you don't offer new facts. You just sprinkle your replies with words like "hide", "took offense", "hold up a mirror", and "tisk tisk"... but those words are severely disconnected from reality.

Nobody was hiding.
Nobody took offense.
The mirror you supposedly held up didn't reveal anything to anyone.
etc.

Nobody even asked if you were atheist or believed in any particular religion.
 
sfleinen said:
Depends on who you ask.

Believers? The Earth is only 6,000 years old and is the result of intelligent design -- created within the recordable (readable/writable/tellable) history of the human species. The readership can decide for themselves whether they believe that or not.

Non-believers? The Earth is 4.54 billion years old according to scientific and mathematical data.

You decide.
-Sean
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Wrong, unknowledgeable believers believe the earth is around 6,000 years old, because they base that on Adam and Eve, the start of the human race as we know it.

But they do not understand what they read, so they are in error, NO ONE knows the exact age of the earth, not even scientist, but I can get closer than them, IN THE BEGINNING is pretty accurate I believe.
 
GodIsNotGreat said:
Since the topic touches on the question of the efficacy of prayer. I think it is appropriate to link to this Harvard University scientific study, the largest study of its kind and considered the most rigorous.

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

The conclusion is paradoxical: There is no effect of prayer at all and there is in fact more complications that arose in the group of patients prayed for.

_____________________________________


If atheism is a religion then Off is a TV channel - Anon
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How's this for no effect.......
I know an individual that was diagnosed with terminal Cancer, which had taken over his entire body. He was opened up in Surgery by a team of doctors that stood there in shock at what they saw. His inside's were completely covered over and eaten up with the Cancer. Not a square inch inside him (which was in his mid-section and abdominal area which included all his organs) that was Cancer ridden. They closed him up. They gave him a few hours to live due to the severity of it. His family and others were praying for him the entire time. The next day, another top surgeon came in and ask to see this Cancer for his own. He shared with the other doctors that he believed if certain parts of the Cancer were taken out that it might prolong his life someway. They took the man back to surgery and opened him up again. The team of doctor's, nurses and everyone else in the room stood there in absolute shock. There wasn't any sign of Cancer within the man's body. The doctors held a press conference to tell of this mystery and had no answer for what had occurred. They can usually come up with some reason for this phenomenon but not this time. They announced that what had just happened was medically impossible and left it at that.
So I don't care how many studies have been done by scientist or whomever. To say that prayer has no effect......I wonder if they would feel the same way if it were any of them that this happened to. I highly doubt it.
Pray on believers, PRAY on.......:grin-angelic:


_____________________________________
 
Rjmoncrief said:
How's this for no effect.......
I know an individual that was diagnosed with terminal Cancer, which had taken over his entire body. He was opened up in Surgery by a team of doctors that stood there in shock at what they saw. His inside's were completely covered over and eaten up with the Cancer. Not a square inch inside him (which was in his mid-section and abdominal area which included all his organs) that was Cancer ridden. They closed him up. They gave him a few hours to live due to the severity of it. His family and others were praying for him the entire time. The next day, another top surgeon came in and ask to see this Cancer for his own. He shared with the other doctors that he believed if certain parts of the Cancer were taken out that it might prolong his life someway. They took the man back to surgery and opened him up again. The team of doctor's, nurses and everyone else in the room stood there in absolute shock. There wasn't any sign of Cancer within the man's body. The doctors held a press conference to tell of this mystery and had no answer for what had occurred. They can usually come up with some reason for this phenomenon but not this time. They announced that what had just happened was medically impossible and left it at that.
So I don't care how many studies have been done by scientist or whomever. To say that prayer has no effect......I wonder if they would feel the same way if it were any of them that this happened to. I highly doubt it.
Pray on believers, PRAY on.......:grin-angelic:


_____________________________________
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So, the moral of the story, is one person got their prayer answered, but the other 5 or 6 billion folks are SOL ?? I'm not digging those odds myself..
 
Aren't there any moderators at all on this site? This isn't even a post to be kicked to the curb anymore it should just be deleted. Get this religious shit off the main forum.
 
ChicagoRJ said:
Who took offense ? The only one that held up a mirror was history, with the murders through out the centuries. Your mirror consisted of complaining about Atheist's pushing their agenda, when history has clearly shown NOT to be the case. You actually had no "points" only an opinion that was proved to be false, and by a wide margin.

Again, I'm not debating God's existence, only that it is NOT atheists that are pushing their views through out history.

I'm married to a person of faith, and have no problem with it at all being agnostic. And I will defend someone's right to follow their religion. But also defend an atheists point of view without be accused so absurdly that they are pushing their "views" on anyone.

Again, an honest discussion without any verbal jabs or fist pounding, which is not a bad thing sometimes on this touchy subject. Now if this gets moved to NPR, I'm out :)
Click to expand...

Wonder why you left out all the listings of atheists killing religious people. Still going on today, by the way.
 
sfleinen said:
Depends on who you ask.

Believers? The Earth is only 6,000 years old and is the result of intelligent design -- created within the recordable (readable/writable/tellable) history of the human species. The readership can decide for themselves whether they believe that or not.

Non-believers? The Earth is 4.54 billion years old according to scientific and mathematical data.

You decide.
-Sean
Click to expand...

Sean, I doubt even half of Christians believe the earth is only 6,000 yrs. old. Being older does not go against anything in the Bible, by the way. It does go against some peoples interpretation, though.
 
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