John and Lou, the plain truth

[BRussell]

I agree with the OP. Look, people have the right to do what they want with their own money. People don't have the right to be free of criticism about their public behavior.

And criticism is usually not very nice, but I think Tate saw a lot of people giving praise and respect for making this bet. That matters. It conveys a message to others that this was smart, praiseworthy behavior.

In that context, I think it's reasonable to point out what (to many of us) is mind-numbingly obvious: That laying out $10k on an Internet-argument-turned-ego-bet is not smart nor praiseworthy. It is fun to watch though.

 

[itsfroze]

Running out in one pocket comes way of two opportunities, and sometimes they are one in the same.

Either you outmove your opponent, and create that opportunity to run balls. Or your opponent sells out and gives you the opportunity to run balls.

I agree with Nick B that the game is much more offensive minded today, but until guys are winning more than half their games with 8 and outs, then it's not a run out game and moving well will still be considered the most important factor.

I never said it was a run out game, that's first.
But when you're selling out more and when you're getting an
opportunity you're not capitalizing on it by running some balls.
Guess what your opponent is getting to 8 first.

 

[TATE]

That laying out $10k on an Internet-argument-turned-ego-bet is not smart nor praiseworthy. It is fun to watch though.

Thank you for stating what should be obvious in such an eloquent way.

 

[TATE]

Like the OP, you're not smart enough to see the difference between gambling money and everyday money.

Beiber lvr - you are correct. It takes a great degree of intelligent and understanding to know which part of your money should be pissed away on gambling and which part should be saved for food and shelter and general survival.

 

[itsfroze]

So Tate what you are saying or at least the way that you are coming off is
that unless people agree with you and gamble the way you do they are wrong.

Does that about sum it up ?

As that's what it sounds like to me.
I might even be hearing an under lying touch
of jealousy, as you doth complain to much.

 

[duckie]

The funniest part is that its no bodies business if they did or did not have the money.

Reminds me of a bunch of old ladies gossiping because they ain't got a life of their own.

Gotta make drama where there is none.

 

[Cornerman]

I agree with the OP. Look, people have the right to do what they want with their own money. People don't have the right to be free of criticism about their public behavior.

And criticism is usually not very nice, but I think Tate saw a lot of people giving praise and respect for making this bet. That matters. It conveys a message to others that this was smart, praiseworthy behavior.

In that context, I think it's reasonable to point out what (to many of us) is mind-numbingly obvious: That laying out $10k on an Internet-argument-turned-ego-bet is not smart nor praiseworthy. It is fun to watch though.

Lou and backers won net $10k; John netted case sales. Praiseworthy sounds right to me

Freddie <~~~ netted nada

 

[BRussell]

Lou and backers won net $10k; John netted case sales. Praiseworthy sounds right to me

Freddie <~~~ netted nada

Good point.

 

[smoooothstroke]

This match happened because two guys shot off their mouths on the internet. Plain and simple. It is shameful behavior. A whole pack of people piled on too, which made it worse. There is nothing here to be proud of, nothing noble. Does either guy really seem like they can afford to gamble 10K or 20K on a pool match? Not to me they don't.

Furthermore, any of you so-called gamblers who respect someone for gambling their hard earned money, their family's savings or children's potential college fund on a pool game needs to seriously examine their values. There is a culture among gamblers that talks of respect for what is basically reckless, self-destructive behavior. Do we praise someone who falls down stinking drunk every night? Yet we praise someone who gambles large?

I gamble for entertainment, just enough to sweat. No harm in that. We are fathers, workers, employers, husbands. At some point, as mature men, we need to accept that our actions affect a lot of people who depend on us and act responsibly We shouldn't let our ego's dictate our actions. I watched the match and enjoyed it. But let's not forget why this match really took place.

The plain truth is, it was pitiful.

Good post but...

There is no greater undertaking then playing pool for money.The more money the better.It is IMO the best sport in the world.

By sport I mean in the old sense of the word,I am not saying it is an athletic competition.

Weather you gamble on pool for a living,for fun or just because you are addicted to pool and or gambling there are few better reasons to save up a bankroll and take a shot.

Live,love,play just go for it.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Beiber lvr - you are correct. It takes a great degree of intelligent and understand to know which part of your money should be pissed away on gambling and which part should be saved for food and shelter and general survival.

Get off your high horse already.

Why don't you go ahead and provide just an ounce of proof that the money gambled by either player took away from any "food and shelter and general survival."

People all over the country spend just as much (if not more) money on things that have very little to no ROI. Cars, boats, houses, watches, home remodeling. I guess they're all pitiful as well.

 

[wincardona]

I have been around gamblers all my life, they come in all shapes and sizes, and there are many many reasons why they gamble. We as people only go through life once, there's no return ticket, if a man wants to gamble..doctor..throw a ball, or just read a book that's his choice. Imo if you're not hurting someone with your actions then a man should be able to do whatever he chooses. And who are we to judge some one just because their doing something we wouldn't do. JEEZ!!

Stop and smell the roses..or whatever else you want to smell.:yeah: You go John.

Bill Incardona < gambled even when he couldn't afford it

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

One pocket was not the best game for John, because one pocket is not a run out game. Even the best Pro One user with the best fundamentals might not come out ahead against someone that moves really well. Although I wasn't all that impressed with Lou's moving game, it was very obvious that he had the edge over John in that department.

We must have been watching different matches.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Get off your high horse already.

Why don't you go ahead and provide just an ounce of proof that the money gambled by either player took away from any "food and shelter and general survival."

People all over the country spend just as much (if not more) money on things that have very little to no ROI. Cars, boats, houses, watches, home remodeling. I guess they're all pitiful as well.

I'm sure I stuffed way more than $10K of snow up my nose back in the 80s, when I was rolling in dough. I rationalized it in every way I could, and had my own little pink flake slush fund I took the money out of. According to your logic, I was "smart enough" to see the difference between the two kinds of money back then. But it was pitiful for sure, and I'm still ashamed of all this 30 years after the fact.

The winds of finance shifted for me many years ago, and I'm no longer rolling in dough. Not even close. I really could use all that money (plus interest) today to give to my struggling kids. All I have to give them now is this deviated septum I'm left with.

 

[punter]

The OP of this thread is pretty weak, in fact, just the opposite is closer to the truth. Both participants are grown men who by all accounts can afford to make such a bet. The guy that was the clear favorite according to general consensus, Lou, although he could have put up all of the money, he elected to put up what he wanted to and was staked for the rest.

John Barton did this, at least partially, to advertise his cases, and will probably recoup all of his loss, if not more, on increased sales.

Both men clearly exercised good judgement in deciding to compete in this match.

So to try to get into these two's business is pretty lame. In fact the first time I read it, I thought it was a bad joke.

 

[Nick B]

You are so wrong. System users have never discounted fundamentals. Only guys like you have put words in our mouths.

I am the worst example of a system user because I am too lazy and too busy to work endlessly on my stroke.

Pat Fleming complimented me on the banks and I said to him I only hit the ball where the system puts me.

An aiming system like a cue is only a tool. It does not take the shot. Only the player does that.

I want to add that a rising tide lifts all boats. I firmly believe that most good players could be even better if they could aim better. Many players have better form than me but they dont come with the shots.

I understand that you and Lou have a burned in permanent belief that systems don't work but they do.

If you don't think so Nick then you can pick any game on a regulation pool table and play Stan Shuffett and I don't think you will like it.

And I honestly don't think Lou would find any backers willing to bet this high against Stan. Which is only said because when you put up a player with rock solid fundamentals who also has the advantage of a better way to aim then then that player simply has a much larger arsenal of shots he can confidently take and make.

Lastly I have never ever said anyone must use a system to play. I have said that you can certainly get there through brute force practice, most do.

Your right. Your fundamentals are great. Bordering on perfect. I would still like to play this guy befor I tackle your System-God.







Are you sure your not Irish? Nice Jig. It's fundamental John. You don't know where to hit the ball and can't stay down to get there.
Based on where the ball started you needed to hit about 1/8th of a ball. Based on result you hit 1/2. I have yet to find a GC that will accept that ball.


Nick B

 

[itsfroze]

I'm sure I stuffed way more than $10K of snow up my nose back in the 80s, when I was rolling in dough. I rationalized it in every way I could, and had my own little pink flake slush fund I took the money out of. According to your logic, I was "smart enough" to see the difference between the two kinds of money back then. But it was pitiful for sure, and I'm still ashamed of all this 30 years after the fact.

The winds of finance shifted for me many years ago, and I'm no longer rolling in dough. Not even close. I really could use all that money (plus interest) today to give to my struggling kids. All I have to give them now is this deviated septum I'm left with.

The fact is though that you could say this about anything that you spent money
on that was not absolutely necessary.

So according to you, that means you should never spend money on something you
just want.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

The fact is though that you could say this about anything that you spent money
on that was not absolutely necessary.

So according to you, that means you should never spend money on something you
just want.

That's not at all what I'm saying, but go ahead and spin it however you please. This is the Internet. You win.

 

[JB Cases]

Your right. Your fundamentals are great. Bordering on perfect. I would still like to play this guy befor I tackle your System-God.

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Are you sure your not Irish? Nice Jig. It's fundamental John. You don't know where to hit the ball and can't stay down to get there.
Based on where the ball started you needed to hit about 1/8th of a ball. Based on result you hit 1/2. I have yet to find a GC that will accept that ball.


Nick B

You can play Gerry. He is in Canada as are you. If you two make a game let me know. I know where to hit the ball. I dogged the shot. I dogged a lot of shots. On the table right here I just shot the first one I dogged, the bank to my hole with the cue ball going three rails behind the balls and it went every time. I simply dogged the shots.

I was playing on pure adrenaline the first two games. Watching now I see how incredibly awfully fast my stroke was. I was absolutely on tilt from the first ball.

Anyway, it's done so you can go ahead and get your licks in, live it up vicariously Nick because we both know you won't play a player. There is a line of people coast to coast who always want to play me. Go play someone like Gerry or Stan who have dedicated far more time to MASTERING the system.

Lou played great, maybe not as good as he possibly can but he also knows he got a lot of gifts in the first couple games and to get on the hill as well. I forgot my pocket.

So you can spin it how you want but the aiming system has NOTHING to do with me losing this match. In fact it is what helped me to line up on many tough shots and nail them.

 

[shinobi]

So you can spin it how you want but the aiming system has NOTHING to do with me losing this match. In fact it is what helped me to line up on many tough shots and nail them.

Knowing where to hit the ball is probably the easiest part of pool. I don't know about you, but I set up "Virtual Pool" on a PC, played a few games with a total banger, and they learned the concept almost instantly. And then, I could see a massive improvement in their game almost immediately. They still missed shots, but it was because of execution errors (ie: fundamentals) not an inability to know where to hit the ball.

You had months to prepare for this match and still showed up with that ridiculous stroke? How does that even happen?

CTE could be the greatest system on the planet but your performance could never be used for an example because you didn't just miss a lot of shots, you missed them badly. And if a $10,000 gamble isn't enough for you to "bother" to fix those glaring errors than what is? Presumably nothing.

I knew that even if you missed shots badly and lost this match, you'd still make excuses. Secretly I hoped not, but I knew...

 

[Nick B]

You can play Gerry. He is in Canada as are you. If you two make a game let me know. I know where to hit the ball. I dogged the shot. I dogged a lot of shots. On the table right here I just shot the first one I dogged, the bank to my hole with the cue ball going three rails behind the balls and it went every time. I simply dogged the shots.

I was playing on pure adrenaline the first two games. Watching now I see how incredibly awfully fast my stroke was. I was absolutely on tilt from the first ball.

Anyway, it's done so you can go ahead and get your licks in, live it up vicariously Nick because we both know you won't play a player. There is a line of people coast to coast who always want to play me. Go play someone like Gerry or Stan who have dedicated far more time to MASTERING the system.

Lou played great, maybe not as good as he possibly can but he also knows he got a lot of gifts in the first couple games and to get on the hill as well. I forgot my pocket.

So you can spin it how you want but the aiming system has NOTHING to do with me losing this match. In fact it is what helped me to line up on many tough shots and nail them.

Canada is a big place. If Gerry (not sure whom you are referring to) would like he can PM me. Hope his fundamentals are better. You came. You barked. You fell on your CTE face. You got to expect after waving your bum around for the better part of half a year you got to expect people laughing after getting it kicked in.

Lou played good. What gifts you left were your own fault. When you pushed over those three balls that had nothing to do with the shot I fell on my a$$. 30 years of playing and you can't hit that shot cleanly? I have hit balls better with 3 bridges stacked over a cluster.