How beneficial is an aiming system?

[lfigueroa]

I thought all you had to do was buy the DVD and let the magic happen. :wink:

And guess what? If the magic does not happen...

If Tinker-bell does not whack you on the noggin with her CTE wand -- it's your fault.

You did not try hard enough. You didn't spend long enough with it. You didn't have an open mind. Shame on you.

Hater.

Lou Figueroa
sorry Tink

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Provide the proof.

An argument; geometrical diagrams and explanations; sumthin'.

Lou Figueroa

Get DVD 2. He explains all that very clearly at the beginning for those of us who spent the 40 clams. Why should he give it to you for free here?

 

[lfigueroa]

CTE is different at first and no one expected you to ever get past different.

Stan Shuffett

Where's your proof, Stan?

Where's your thesis, supporting data, and arguments. When will you respond to questioners with something other than "hater"?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Get DVD 2. He explains all that very clearly at the beginning for those of us who spent the 40 clams. Why should he give it to you for free here?

I was given DVD2 and have had people begging me to review it ala my DVD1 review ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[shinobi]

I have DVD2 and have had people begging me to review it ala my DVD1 review ;-)

Lou Figueroa

I was tempted to give DVD2 a look but you know the old expression "Fool me once, shame on you..."

Nonetheless, if you have DVD2 wouldn't it be prudent for you to watch it? Or are you saying you already have?

 

[lfigueroa]

Oh, so very wrong again Lou! The burden is on you. Stan made a claim that it works. He has shown that it does. As many others have testified to also. It's up to you to show the shot that it doesn't work on if you want to claim it does not work. Selling something has nothing to do with it at all.

Really? A someone claims their product will do something and that's it? No burden of proof?

The judge in the Kevin Trudeau case might disagree with you, lol.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I was tempted to give DVD2 a look but you know the old expression "Fool me once, shame on you..."

Nonetheless, if you have DVD2 wouldn't it be prudent for you to watch it? Or are you saying you already have?

I might have peeked

Lou Figueroa

 

[Neil]

Here's what kills me: you HAVE NO CLUE what I did to study it, nor how long I spent with it. You just assume the worst.

It's the same old BS defense: you didn't study it long enough; you didn't commit to it; you didn't come to it with an open mind.

If the system made any sense do you not believe a life long pool player wouldn't be able to figure it out and want to use it improve if it the system offered that, lol?!

Lou Figueroa

Wrong again Lou. My, you are batting a thousand tonight, aren't you? : I do have an idea. I do because you have stated so in the past. Besides, all one has to do is look up when you bought it, and when you posted that you sold it.

And, yes, I do believe a life long player would have trouble figuring it out. I know I did. That is because I had a lot of trouble letting go of the way I was previously aiming. The two don't mix like oil and water. Again, I say, you didn't follow the directions. Step one- forget everything you think you know about aiming.

I'm speaking from someone that spent decades aiming wrong. I had trouble learning CTE and 90/90 until I finally let go and just followed the simple steps and observed what was happening. Once I did that, I understood. It really is as simple as people say it is. And, it's one of the best things that have happened to my game.

 

[lfigueroa]

Wrong again Lou. My, you are batting a thousand tonight, aren't you? : I do have an idea. I do because you have stated so in the past. Besides, all one has to do is look up when you bought it, and when you posted that you sold it.

And, yes, I do believe a life long player would have trouble figuring it out. I know I did. That is because I had a lot of trouble letting go of the way I was previously aiming. The two don't mix like oil and water. Again, I say, you didn't follow the directions. Step one- forget everything you think you know about aiming.

I'm speaking from someone that spent decades aiming wrong. I had trouble learning CTE and 90/90 until I finally let go and just followed the simple steps and observed what was happening. Once I did that, I understood. It really is as simple as people say it is. And, it's one of the best things that have happened to my game.

Ok, OK, lol, let me see if I have this straight:

Paragraph One: general CTE hater put down.

Paragraph Two: I didn't try hard enough.

Paragraph Three: I didn't commit to it.

Did I get that right, lol.

Lou Figueroa
yer killin' me

 

[336Robin]

Fair question.

I've written about it in more detail in other threads. The gist of it is, that part of the steps of CTE still involve feel+experience. ie: When you step into the shot, the line you step in comes from experience. When you decide to shoot a shot, with experience you decide whether that shot requires a pivot from L-R or R-L, etc.

What some people against CTE say is, it's still adding some feel and adjustments when you tweak your sight line, bridge hand, pivot.

If there is going to be that much feel+experience built into the shooting, I don't see the point of complicating things. Truthfully, I don't find aiming to be the difficult part. When I miss balls it tends to be because I needed to use a lot of juice on the ball, and misjudged the squirt/throw.

In any case, I specifically quoted the parts of the DVD where Stan references feel and experience, in another thread. His replies are just about spot on to what Lou implied. I didn't give it a chance. I have a closed mind. I don't get it, etc.

I won't say CTE works or doesn't work. To me it just seems like an oddly and unnecessarily complicated way of attempting to aim. If it works for someone, it's no skin off my back, but I'd never recommend it to anyone personally.

As an aside to that, none of the best players I play with use CTE. None of the snooker players use CTE, and for them aiming precision is far more critical, obviously. When I work on my stroke more, my play improves because I'm able to more consistently hit the ball where I intend to. I never feel that the aim point is the difficult part of the equation, and I highly doubt that anyone who practices sound mechanics and fundamentals for any length of time will either.

I've not bought the dvds but Ive seen some of the first, practiced it some, made some balls with it so I could compare it to what I do but it left me feeling as if I wasn't approaching the shot right. I let it go at that point. I think it probably works just fine and Im sure it helps a lot of people but it wasn't for me and I have a fairly open mind. I like you found it a bit more complicated that I cared for. I do think its taken up a lot of time to perfect and Im sure he has helped people with it.

I know one guy who has tried to show it to me, he says he just cant aim otherwise but try as hard as he can he cant seem to get past a certain point but I think that has a lot to do with delivery.....aiming is one thing .....delivery is another.

 

[one stroke]

Wrong again Lou. My, you are batting a thousand tonight, aren't you? : I do have an idea. I do because you have stated so in the past. Besides, all one has to do is look up when you bought it, and when you posted that you sold it.

And, yes, I do believe a life long player would have trouble figuring it out. I know I did. That is because I had a lot of trouble letting go of the way I was previously aiming. The two don't mix like oil and water. Again, I say, you didn't follow the directions. Step one- forget everything you think you know about aiming.

I'm speaking from someone that spent decades aiming wrong. I had trouble learning CTE and 90/90 until I finally let go and just followed the simple steps and observed what was happening. Once I did that, I understood. It really is as simple as people say it is. And, it's one of the best things that have happened to my game.

Simple ,, if it was so simple why does it take more than one DVD and so much time to learn

1

 

[Neil]

Fair question.

I've written about it in more detail in other threads. The gist of it is, that part of the steps of CTE still involve feel+experience. ie: When you step into the shot, the line you step in comes from experience. When you decide to shoot a shot, with experience you decide whether that shot requires a pivot from L-R or R-L, etc.

What some people against CTE say is, it's still adding some feel and adjustments when you tweak your sight line, bridge hand, pivot.

If there is going to be that much feel+experience built into the shooting, I don't see the point of complicating things. Truthfully, I don't find aiming to be the difficult part. When I miss balls it tends to be because I needed to use a lot of juice on the ball, and misjudged the squirt/throw.

In any case, I specifically quoted the parts of the DVD where Stan references feel and experience, in another thread. His replies are just about spot on to what Lou implied. I didn't give it a chance. I have a closed mind. I don't get it, etc.

I won't say CTE works or doesn't work. To me it just seems like an oddly and unnecessarily complicated way of attempting to aim. If it works for someone, it's no skin off my back, but I'd never recommend it to anyone personally.

As an aside to that, none of the best players I play with use CTE. None of the snooker players use CTE, and for them aiming precision is far more critical, obviously. When I work on my stroke more, my play improves because I'm able to more consistently hit the ball where I intend to. I never feel that the aim point is the difficult part of the equation, and I highly doubt that anyone who practices sound mechanics and fundamentals for any length of time will either.

Try stopping getting stuck on words, and try understanding what is actually being said. As soon as you hear "feel" or "experience" you get closed minded to what is actually being said and get stuck on "see, told you so!". Frankly, outside of saying that some people say it's a good system, you shouldn't be recommending it because you don't know much about it at all. If you haven't spent the time to learn it, how can you recommend it, or condemn it?

As to your last paragraph, what a red herring that one is! The guys I know don't use this new system, so I won't give it any merit? Really?? Snooker players don't use, so it must not be that good. Really? That's like saying that snooker players don't use pool cues, so a pool cue is the wrong cue to use. Or saying that snooker players don't play on 9' tables, so I won't either.

Also, apparently a lot of you missed the thread asking about the guys he sees with a near perfect stroke, but can't make many balls. Aiming does not just come automatically. And, most of you guys that say you have no problems aiming, still play safe on certain open shots that you can get position off of just because you feel you will most likely miss them. Well, if aiming is so easy, why don't you shoot them?

 

[Neil]

Simple ,, if it was so simple why does it take more than one DVD and so much time to learn

1

I've said it in this post, and at least a dozen others. Yet, you still don't hear. It's simply because people have a very hard time totally letting go of what they think they already know. To learn CTE you have to go in with a totally open mind, and simply follow the directions and observe. Once one becomes fairly proficient with it, one can easily look back and say, yep, it is very easy. Just have to follow directions. Stan has released several DVD's to try and present different ways of learning it to make it easier for those having troubles. We all learn differently, but in the end, it all boils down to just following the directions given with NO preconceived thoughts about the outcome. Few seem able or willing to do that one step. And some, well, they are just looking for some magic pill that does't exist.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I was given DVD2 and have had people begging me to review it ala my DVD1 review ;-)

Lou Figueroa

Well, then, I just can't wait to read that one. Lol

To be fair, I have some quibbles as well. The major one is that it supposedly takes you to an overcut and allows for throw to pocket the ball. That's not "the geometry of the table" to me, it's friction. And that can vary depending on the balls you use, their condition, and their cleanliness.

My feeling is that the brain is an underutilized organ. There is plenty of room in there for extra stuff, and you don't have to let all that info clog your gears. I know that Appleton uses the SEE system just for a few shots, like cuts along the rails. He also says that he believes many Filipinos are using a version of CTE, and that he thinks CTE is a "good system".

So, it's not for Lou, and apparently Stan already got your $40. Pay it forward and offer it to somebody who is really struggling with the game. And accept the fact that it just may be one more arrow in somebody's quiver, and not necessarily viewed as a panacea for all that ails their game.

 

[Neil]

Neil, I have no burning desires (that do not involve Ann Hathaway).

And I am not hindering anything. Remember: we are a discussion board. So I'm just talkin' here, boss. I do not believe Stan ever makes his case in a convincing way. It's alway his say so. I would like to see him present a hypothesis, with supporting arguments and proofs, and then defend it when questioned. Some sort of peer review if you will. I do not believe that's unreasonable. But instead, all we get is the same ol' garbage.

Lou Figueroa

Sorry, don't believe that for a second, Lou. Here's why I say that-

1. Present a hypothesis- Done that, the steps to use CTE, and that those steps will pocket the ball.
2.With supporting arguments and proof- Done that, arguments are from him and many users of the system that say it works as described. Proofs are in the videos of him and others using it.
3. Defend it when questioned- you are kidding here, right? How many threads and posts are there on it? And you say he nor anyone has defended it?
4. Some sort of peer review- You can't expect me to believe that you haven't read all the posts of the actual users of it, can you? Or do you mean instructors by peer review? Randy and Scott have both said it works. So have other instructors besides myself on here.
5. Something besides the same old garbage- Uh....you have what you have asked for, have had it for a long time now. You just don't like the answers, so you call it garbage. You will most likely say this post is garbage, yet it answered directly your questions, and gave you what you asked for. I suspect you will twist it some way to say that I didn't answer your questions to your satisfaction.

 

[Neil]

Where's your proof, Stan?

Where's your thesis, supporting data, and arguments. When will you respond to questioners with something other than "hater"?

Lou Figueroa

Where's yours? You have the steps, or I should say did have the steps to using the system, where's your thesis , supporting data, and arguments that show it does not work as described. You keep claiming it doesn't work as described, yet offer no proof whatsoever of that other than "because I say so".

 

[336Robin]

Nobel Peace Prize

Well, then, I just can't wait to read that one. Lol

To be fair, I have some quibbles as well. The major one is that it supposedly takes you to an overcut and allows for throw to pocket the ball. That's not "the geometry of the table" to me, it's friction. And that can vary depending on the balls you use, their condition, and their cleanliness.

My feeling is that the brain is an underutilized organ. There is plenty of room in there for extra stuff, and you don't have to let all that info clog your gears. I know that Appleton uses the SEE system just for a few shots, like cuts along the rails. He also says that he believes many Filipinos are using a version of CTE, and that he thinks CTE is a "good system".

So, it's not for Lou, and apparently Stan already got your $40. Pay it forward and offer it to somebody who is really struggling with the game. And accept the fact that it just may be one more arrow in somebody's quiver, and not necessarily viewed as a panacea for all that ails their game.

Sloppy Pockets gets my vote for the "Nobel Peace Prize" for his middle of road introspection, the recognition of the unconscious mind that just makes shots without thinking and mainly for his use of "Panacea". Nice touch and good night everyone don't let your "Conundrum" clog your "Panacea."...lol

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Hey, why did this get moved to the Aiming forum? It isn't even about the Barton-Figueroa grudge match.

 

[Neil]

I thought all you had to do was buy the DVD and let the magic happen. :wink:

That's what some thought. Usually the same ones that buy a different cue every month for the same reason.

 

[chalkhed]

But how else can I try to fill my emptiness if not with a new cue each month? How dare you sir.