How beneficial is an aiming system?

I guess you can't prove someone uses it

It would be easier just to say, I can't prove that anyone is using it. That doesn't mean they aren't or they are.

The problem is everyone gets so defensive when people ask a simple question. You all think people are discrediting you. It is a big joke.

You are in court, how do you answer?

“Mr. Doe, would you consider yourself a pool player?”
“Yes"
“Like most pool players, do you have an issue of striking the cue ball in a manner that delivers no spin on the ball?”
“Sometimes.”
“So what you are saying is it is very hard to hit center ball consistently?”
“yes. I would agree with that statement”
“how far are you from the cue ball when you are trying to strike the cue tip at center ball, in other worlds what is your bridge length?”
“I would say about 6-8 inches”
“Have you ever made a cut shot of over 7 feet?
“yes, many times”
“how do you do it?”
“I use CTE aiming”
“How does that work?”
“Cutting to the left on a slight cut I would visually align the left edge of the cue ball with A on the object ball, and the center of the cue ball on the right edge of the object ball, then I do a sweep into center ball and it goes in?”
“Mr Doe, didn’t you say it is hard to consistently get to center ball?
“um, yes”
“and that was at 6-8 inches, correct?”
“I guess so”
“That is what you said, yes?”
“Yes”
“So if it is hard to get to center ball at 6-8 inches, how can you align the left edge of your cue ball to an imaginary area (A) at 7 feet, how is that possible?”
“Well, umm, Mr Shuffet says it works”
“Furthermore, how do you also align center of the cue ball to the right edge, when you can’t even find center ball consistently?”
“They said it works”
“Mr Doe, you have three issues here.
1. You can’t consistently find center ball when striking the cue ball from 6-8inches.
2. Now you say you can line up to an imaginary part of a cue ball from 7 feet , when you can’t do what was stated in #1
3. You are also lining about the center ball, which you stated you can’t consistently hit (#1) at 7 feet.
So if you are off just a little in each of these areas, how far do you think you would be off in your shot?”
“i don’t know, they say it works”
“Mr. Doe, you do understand common sense, don’t you?
“Yes”
“no further questions, you may step down”
 
How do you prove anyone is using any system?

I mean that is the only defence left now, I have had people tell me I wasn't using it and was subconsciously adjusting or reverting back to how I aimed before. Imagine - somebody else knew what I was doing better than I did.


robsnotes4u said:
It would be easier just to say, I can't prove that anyone is using it. That doesn't mean they aren't or they are.

The problem is everyone gets so defensive when people ask a simple question. You all think people are discrediting you. It is a big joke.

You are in court, how do you answer?

“Mr. Doe, would you consider yourself a pool player?”
“Yes"
“Like most pool players, do you have an issue of striking the cue ball in a manner that delivers no spin on the ball?”
“Sometimes.”
“So what you are saying is it is very hard to hit center ball consistently?”
“yes. I would agree with that statement”
“how far are you from the cue ball when you are trying to strike the cue tip at center ball, in other worlds what is your bridge length?”
“I would say about 6-8 inches”
“Have you ever made a cut shot of over 7 feet?
“yes, many times”
“how do you do it?”
“I use CTE aiming”
“How does that work?”
“Cutting to the left on a slight cut I would visually align the left edge of the cue ball with A on the object ball, and the center of the cue ball on the right edge of the object ball, then I do a sweep into center ball and it goes in?”
“Mr Doe, didn’t you say it is hard to consistently get to center ball?
“um, yes”
“and that was at 6-8 inches, correct?”
“I guess so”
“That is what you said, yes?”
“Yes”
“So if it is hard to get to center ball at 6-8 inches, how can you align the left edge of your cue ball to an imaginary area (A) at 7 feet, how is that possible?”
“Well, umm, Mr Shuffet says it works”
“Furthermore, how do you also align center of the cue ball to the right edge, when you can’t even find center ball consistently?”
“They said it works”
“Mr Doe, you have three issues here.
1. You can’t consistently find center ball when striking the cue ball from 6-8inches.
2. Now you say you can line up to an imaginary part of a cue ball from 7 feet , when you can’t do what was stated in #1
3. You are also lining about the center ball, which you stated you can’t consistently hit (#1) at 7 feet.
So if you are off just a little in each of these areas, how far do you think you would be off in your shot?”
“i don’t know, they say it works”
“Mr. Doe, you do understand common sense, don’t you?
“Yes”
“no further questions, you may step down”
Click to expand...
 
Gerry Williams said:
So where are the limitations?

No system accounts for swerve, squirt or throw - nobody ever made that claim. However, when you are on the shot line making the necessary adjustment is much easier.
Click to expand...
To Gerry and others asking me questions of me:

Honestly, based on countless hours of past experience with threads like this and numerous telephone conversations and e-mail communications with many of the system proponents, I don't think there is anything else I can add to this debate beyond what I have linked already. Specifically:

analysis and evaluation of the CTE approach of aiming

benefits of aiming systems like CTE

I will keep reading, and if I feel I can add anything helpful on a specific point, I will, but until then I will remain a benevolent observer.

I think the information, illustrations, and resources available via the links above clearly present the underlying "scientific explanations" for how systems like CTE work and how they can be helpful for the people who use them effectively.

Regards,
Dave
 
JB Cases said:
Why do you use the word suspect? Why can't you accept that a person knows themselves well enough to see their own improvement and knows the reasons for it?

If intuitive players were able to be as good as Gerry is then why aren't any of them above him on your exams? And you are certainly not an intuitive player at this point.

You're the only one above him and your table is ridiculously easy compared to his. The only other person higher than both of you is Ekkes who is a diehard system user and instructor.

The fact is that on average system users are more accurate. Period. That is a provable fact.

So stop being so wishy-washy. You put up the test and system users are the best ones at it. Acknowledge it.
Click to expand...


Gerry has a better score than both Ekkes and Dave. In fact, out of the top 20 scores, 12 of them were made by system users.
 
“Mr. Doe, would you consider yourself a pool player?”
“Yes"
“Like most pool players, do you have an issue of striking the cue ball in a manner that delivers no spin on the ball?”
“Not any more. Since I have learned CTE and put in a lot of practice I find and hit center ball easily.”
“So what you are saying is it is very hard to hit center ball consistently?”
“for some people, not for me.
“how far are you from the cue ball when you are trying to strike the cue tip at center ball, in other worlds what is your bridge length?”
“I would say about 6-8 inches”
“Have you ever made a cut shot of over 7 feet?
“yes, many times”
“how do you do it?”
“I use CTE aiming”
“How does that work?”
“Cutting to the left on a slight cut I would visually align the left edge of the cue ball with A on the object ball, and the center of the cue ball on the right edge of the object ball, then I do a sweep into center ball and if my stroke is true then the ball goes in.”
“Mr Doe, didn’t you say it is hard to consistently get to center ball?
“no”
“and that was at 6-8 inches, correct?”
“yes”
“That is what you said, yes?”
“Yes”
“So if it is hard to get to center ball at 6-8 inches, how can you align the left edge of your cue ball to an imaginary area (A) at 7 feet, how is that possible?”
“It's not hard to address the cue ball at 6-8" - using the CTE method I find that I am able to land on the shot line.”
“Furthermore, how do you also align center of the cue ball to the right edge, when you can’t even find center ball consistently?”
“Perception, and I can find center ball consistently.”
“Mr Doe, you have three issues here.
1. You can’t consistently find center ball when striking the cue ball from 6-8inches.
2. Now you say you can line up to an imaginary part of a cue ball from 7 feet , when you can’t do what was stated in #1
3. You are also lining about the center ball, which you stated you can’t consistently hit (#1) at 7 feet.
So if you are off just a little in each of these areas, how far do you think you would be off in your shot?”
“Your questions are misleading. I can hit center ball consistently, I can line up to the object ball from any distance on the table. Would you like a demonstration?
“Mr. Doe, you do understand common sense, don’t you?
“Yes, do you?”
“no further questions, you may step down”
 
Last edited:
dr_dave said:
To Gerry and others asking me questions of me:

Honestly, based on countless hours of past experience with threads like this and numerous telephone conversations and e-mail communications with many of the system proponents, I don't think there is anything else I can add to this debate beyond what I have linked already. Specifically:

analysis and evaluation of the CTE approach of aiming

benefits of aiming systems like CTE

I will keep reading, and if I feel I can add anything helpful on a specific point, I will, but until then I will remain a benevolent observer.

I think the information, illustrations, and resources available via the links above clearly present the underlying "scientific explanations" for how systems like CTE work and how they can be helpful for the people who use them effectively.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Well, one thing you could do Dave- actually learn the system and then make an evaluation on it. Not make an evaluation of posts of others and then claim that is an honest evaluation of the actual system. Being an instructor, it would benefit you to know how to use it correctly anyways.
 
Dave Alciatore,

You wrote this:

"DAM aiming system

How does Dave's Aiming Method (DAM) work?

I first came up with Dave's Aiming Method (DAM) as a joke to mock some people who try to promote aiming systems with outrageous claims and snake-oil-salesman type statements, but I also have some serious and useful recommendations below.

First, let's start with a satirical list of outrageous claims, many of which are direct quotes or paraphrases from statements posted by "aiming system" proponents on pool Internet forums over the years ...

I have invented an amazing and new aiming system called DAM that will revolutionize pool playing all around the world. You won't find DAM in any books, because it has just been recently invented. But rest assured ... all future pool books will present DAM in its full glory. DAM is the best and most complete aiming system, that also contributes to correct body alignment, that has ever been devised. Most of the pros use it, especially the Filipino players ... that's why they are so good. DAM works on every shot, regardless of the distance between the balls, or the angle and distance to the pocket. The best thing about DAM is you don't even need to know or see where the pocket is. Just align and pivot, and the ball goes in the hole. When a good player uses the system, it is impossible to tell ... it will just look like they are naturally pocketing balls. That's when you know they are using DAM!

Try to prove that DAM doesn't work ... you can't, because it does work. If you can't make it work, it is either because you really don't understand it or you don't have an open mind. If you ask a pro if he or she uses DAM, and he or she says he or she doesn't, it is because he or she doesn't want you to know his or her secrets. The DAM system will radically improve the shot-making abilities of those who spend the time to learn it. DAM will eventually become the "aiming standard" and will significantly accelerate your learning curve. There are those who will eventually learn the system, and there are those who will not, and be beaten by those who do. If you don't think DAM works, it is because you haven't had personalized lessons with somebody who truly understands it. I make almost every shot with this system ... I rarely miss. Isn't that proof of how good it is? Don't you want to be as good as me? If you want to master the DAM system, you must visit me in person and pay outrageous sums of money to learn all of the required intricacies.

It only takes two days to learn DAM, and if you practice it for two months, you will start winning tournaments. If you can't make it work, it is because you don't have enough "visual intelligence," in which case you are hopeless. Don't ask me to describe the system in words or with diagrams, because this can't be done; although, I do have lots of fancy words and phrases to describe various parts of the system ... aren't you impressed? If you don't believe in my system or if you doubt the validity of my approach, you will be banished by all of my followers.

Probably the most amazing fact about DAM is that it works for all types of shots, not just cut shots. It also gives you the correct line of aim for combos, caroms, and banks. And you don't need to adjust for speed, sidespin, throw, or spin-transfer effects. All of the adjustment happen automatically with DAM.

If you want to learn the magic of DAM, I am currently offering exclusive private lessons. I know this might sound ridiculous, but I must be clear on this matter: My students are not allowed to share with anybody anything they learn. They are required to sign a special nondisclosure agreement that binds them for life. People are willing to openly discuss and share everything they learn from my BU, VEPS, and VEPP series; but if and when I ever release a DAM DVD, the information must not be disclosed by any viewers; otherwise, they risk exposing themselves to extreme wrath and persecution."

Please provide in a scholarly manner the origin of each of your mocking (self-described) assertions.

You said that the words you wrote above are paraphrased. So can you provide the original quotes so that we can see the context you are claiming to paraphrase from?
 
Gerry Williams said:
There is a ton of video proof - you just choose to ignore it. Like Stan said - show one shot that doesn't have a solution in CTE...

Didn't think so. The sad part is your hate is holding you back from discovering a wonderful way to play the game.

Stan and others contribute real value to the industry.
Click to expand...

Just like there is video proof of Bigfoot and ghosts.

The people pushing this stuff act like fanatical followers. Either people accept CTE as gospel or they're heretics. Lou doesn't do the puppy dog following act, so now he's filled with hate. Yeah, like that's a valid point.

If you make claims, the burden of proof is on you. Not the other way around. Just ask the FDA or even Kevin Trudeau.

PROVE IT! Just freakin prove it FOR ONCE! JUST ONCE! Give some EVIDENCE. You do understand what that is, right? I mean, I suppose I could post a link to a dictionary or something..
 
Banks said:
Just like there is video proof of Bigfoot and ghosts.

The people pushing this stuff act like fanatical followers. Either people accept CTE as gospel or they're heretics. Lou doesn't do the puppy dog following act, so now he's filled with hate. Yeah, like that's a valid point.

If you make claims, the burden of proof is on you. Not the other way around. Just ask the FDA or even Kevin Trudeau.

PROVE IT! Just freakin prove it FOR ONCE! JUST ONCE! Give some EVIDENCE. You do understand what that is, right? I mean, I suppose I could post a link to a dictionary or something..
Click to expand...

No, CTE users don't think that those who don't use CTE are heretics. But it can be frustrating when there IS mountains of video evidence that it does work yet people like yourself choose to ignore it.

The only way someone like you will EVER see any proof in your mind is if you take the time to really learn CTE. Which appears to be very unlikely. Until then you will sit here in this forum and unfairly criticise that which you have no idea about.

My own personal experience after taking the time to learn CTE (for the last 6 weeks) and apply it is that it is the most accurate and simplest way to aim I have come across to date. I have no motive whatsoever to say this, just my personal experience.
 
Here is some proof from this past weekend in Syracuse. My first event.

http://www.azbilliards.com/people/16133-gerry-williams/

And here from last years league play.

Monday ELITE Singles
Registration to take place September 23 & 30, 2013

First Week of Play Monday Oct 7, 2013
Last Week of Play Monday April 21, 2014
Year End Tournament April 26 & 27, 2014

$15.00 Registration / $20.00 Nightly Fees

Coordinator - Jason Munro

Last Years Tournament Winner, Gerry Williams, took home $5000.00!
STATS AVAILABLE HERE

So don't try to tell me what works and doesn't work scooter. You have no clue when it comes to CTE but get your jollies bashing the hard work of others. People like you are a dime a dozen - criticize but never add any value back to the community. You and Lou deserve one another.



Banks said:
Just like there is video proof of Bigfoot and ghosts.

The people pushing this stuff act like fanatical followers. Either people accept CTE as gospel or they're heretics. Lou doesn't do the puppy dog following act, so now he's filled with hate. Yeah, like that's a valid point.

If you make claims, the burden of proof is on you. Not the other way around. Just ask the FDA or even Kevin Trudeau.

PROVE IT! Just freakin prove it FOR ONCE! JUST ONCE! Give some EVIDENCE. You do understand what that is, right? I mean, I suppose I could post a link to a dictionary or something..
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
bwally said:
No, CTE users don't think that those who don't use CTE are heretics. But it can be frustrating when there IS mountains of video evidence that it does work yet people like yourself choose to ignore it.

The only way someone like you will EVER see any proof in your mind is if you take the time to really learn CTE. Which appears to be very unlikely. Until then you will sit here in this forum and unfairly criticise that which you have no idea about.

My own personal experience after taking the time to learn CTE (for the last 6 weeks) and apply it is that it is the most accurate and simplest way to aim I have come across to date. I have no motive whatsoever to say this, just my personal experience.
Click to expand...

THERE IS NOT "MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE". Do you even understand what evidence is?

Ok, how about this..

Learn and follow every single religion in the world and then tell me that whatever you currently believe is still correct.

Unfairly criticize? What are you smoking? CTE people make claims and they get their panties in a wad when asked for proof. I can make a bunch of shots and claim it was the PBR that I had the night before that made those shots. It does not make it so. Yeah, I get it, that's pretty hard to comprehend..

Gerry Williams said:
Here is some proof from this past weekend in Syracuse. My first event.

http://www.azbilliards.com/people/16133-gerry-williams/
Click to expand...

Seriously..

No, really..

What don't you understand about the words "proof" and "evidence"?

How about my proof that ghost ball works better? Yep, I did well doing things in a short amount of time, so it's obviously better.
 
Gerry Williams said:
Here is some proof from this past weekend in Syracuse. My first event.

http://www.azbilliards.com/people/16133-gerry-williams/

And here from last years league play.

Monday ELITE Singles
Registration to take place September 23 & 30, 2013

First Week of Play Monday Oct 7, 2013
Last Week of Play Monday April 21, 2014
Year End Tournament April 26 & 27, 2014

$15.00 Registration / $20.00 Nightly Fees

Coordinator - Jason Munro

Last Years Tournament Winner, Gerry Williams, took home $5000.00!
STATS AVAILABLE HERE

So don't try to tell me what works and doesn't work scooter. You have no clue when it comes to CTE but get your jollies bashing the hard work of others. People like you are a dime a dozen - criticize but never add any value back to the community. You and Lou deserve one another.
Click to expand...

Scooter? Are you currently on medication?

PROVE IT WORKS.

You do know what "proof" is, don't you?

Well, apparently not..
 
Tell you what - why don't you post some video so we can all see how you do with ghost ball?

Yeah, didn't think so.


Banks said:
THERE IS NOT "MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE". Do you even understand what evidence is?

Ok, how about this..

Learn and follow every single religion in the world and then tell me that whatever you currently believe is still correct.

Unfairly criticize? What are you smoking? CTE people make claims and they get their panties in a wad when asked for proof. I can make a bunch of shots and claim it was the PBR that I had the night before that made those shots. It does not make it so. Yeah, I get it, that's pretty hard to comprehend..



Seriously..

No, really..

What don't you understand about the words "proof" and "evidence"?

How about my proof that ghost ball works better? Yep, I did well doing things in a short amount of time, so it's obviously better.
Click to expand...
 
You want proof that it not only doesn't work, but that it's harmful to one's game?

Stevie Moore's earnings:

2008: $62,155
2009: $36,725
2010: $26,746
2011: $16,020
2012: $19,466
2013: $3,115

Prove me wrong.

Lol. It's fun arguing with people that require no scientific evidence.
 
Gerry Williams said:
Tell you what - why don't you post some video so we can all see how you do with ghost ball?

Yeah, didn't think so.
Click to expand...

How long have you been playing? Why not put it out there.. we can compare notes.

How long have you been playing?
How many lessons have you had?
How much have you spent on time?
How much have you spent on equipment?
Do you have a table at home?
 
I have nothing to hide man - I use my real name here too.

Been playing 20 years on and off but more so in the last 5. Been using CTE for the last 18 months or so.

I have worked with Joe Tucker and Stan Shuffett. Both excellent investments.

Spent on time - no idea, do you keep track of this?

Equipment - no idea. (10K maybe)

Yes - I do. A 9ft Olhausen.

Banks said:
How long have you been playing? Why not put it out there.. we can compare notes.

How long have you been playing?
How many lessons have you had?
How much have you spent on time?
How much have you spent on equipment?
Do you have a table at home?
Click to expand...
 
Banks said:
THERE IS NOT "MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE". Do you even understand what evidence is?

Ok, how about this..

Learn and follow every single religion in the world and then tell me that whatever you currently believe is still correct.

Unfairly criticize? What are you smoking? CTE people make claims and they get their panties in a wad when asked for proof. I can make a bunch of shots and claim it was the PBR that I had the night before that made those shots. It does not make it so. Yeah, I get it, that's pretty hard to comprehend..



Seriously..

No, really..

What don't you understand about the words "proof" and "evidence"?

How about my proof that ghost ball works better? Yep, I did well doing things in a short amount of time, so it's obviously better.
Click to expand...

OK then, what would YOU consider proof then Mr Expert?

Again I have nothing to gain here and I can only share my own experience with CTE. Of which I have ZERO reason to lie about.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk
 
Gerry Williams said:
I have nothing to hide man - I use my real name here too.

Been playing 20 years on and off but more so in the last 5. Been using CTE for the last 18 months or so.

I have worked with Joe Tucker and Stan Shuffett. Both excellent investments.

Spent on time - no idea, do you keep track of this?

Equipment - no idea. (10K maybe)

Yes - I do. A 9ft Olhausen.
Click to expand...

Who said you had anything to hide?

I've been playing for 9 years. No real lessons. Equipment, maybe $500 or so. I bought a barbox once, but it was so bad I didn't use it. I just drink and play primarily on bar tables. I've been on here since a year after I started playing and joined APA. Just about my entire pool history can be found on AZB. Locally, I'd be a high A or low master. I've played with a handful of people here on the board. I'm ok, not great but not horrible.

When I sit here at work at read about these cure-all claims, I just ask for proof. Nobody can give any solid proof. After 20 years of playing and having a table at home, you play really well? No kidding. Of course, Barton was all about CTE even 4 years or so ago when I first noticed this aiming topic. I guess that means my method of "just playing" is better than CTE? If I wanted to make such a claim, I'd think I would need some kind of solid evidence. From the sounds of it here, though, that wouldn't seem to be the case. Maybe I should add it to my sig line that what I do is better than CTE? After all, I don't need scientific proof.
 
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