Snooker vs. Pool

Commentary inserted in-line with each bullet item below.



Not necessarily an issue, because many snooker players implement an elbow drop during stroke. In fact, some -- like Chris Melling -- has what's called a "scissor stroke" whereby the elbow drops on the pull-back of the cue, and then rises as the cue is delivered, ending with the elbow dropping again on the follow-through. (This movement comes from years of exaggerated attention to detail in keeping the cue level and delivered straight, like a solenoid or hydraulic piston.)



This is a big problem with pool players -- the lack of a smooth transition from backward pull-back to forward stroke. Or, shall we say, the transition doesn't match what the player is doing during his feather strokes (practice strokes) -- the player will pull back and <snap!> immediately try to move the cue in the opposite direction. Just like when piloting a ship with variable pitch propellers, you traveling at Flank 3 speed, and you suddenly slam it into Flank 3 Reverse (what's called a "crash back"). The transition is not going to be smooth by any means, and yaw will be introduced into the delivery.



For pool players, yes. This is from the player being tentative / fearful, and sometimes gets ingrained even when the player is experienced.



Rare, but yes, it does happen, when someone's trying to exaggerate the movement.



Oh heck yes. See this all the time, even amongst players who think they don't steer.



All the time.



Related to poke stroke. Yes.



We all do that -- even snooker players. Overrunning position or coming up short happens all the time. Especially to those of us -- irrespective of pool or snooker -- who can't play all the time, and only can afford one or two days a week.



Yes, there are many pool players who believe a good draw stroke is achieved by elevating the butt of the cue and striking downwards on the cue ball (works, but accuracy is drastically reduced). And, because of stance issues, the player may not realize how "unlevel" his/her cue is.



All the time.



Yes. I relate this to a combination of lack of pre-shot routine, bad or inconsistent eye patterns (both below), as well as lack of attention to alignment to the shot line before even getting into a stance.



Yep, all the time, especially among the amateur ranks.



Ditto (as with "lack of pre-shot routine" above).



The biggest problem, IMHO, is the inherent resistance to any kind of structured form of instruction -- whether that be by instructor, class, regimented stick-to-it-ness to a book or DVD, or what-have-you. In pool, "learning" has always been a "roll your own" endeavor. Think back to when you first learned how to play pool -- someone put a stick in your hand and said, "hold it like this, put it on your bridge hand like this, and shove it into the cue ball." That's basically what most pool players attribute their "training" to. They may pick up some books or DVDs in the future, or even take lessons from a pro, but those are always point-purpose lessons. I.e. the player is looking for that specific "something" -- that "magic bullet" to immediately play better. The golden pill. The magic elixir. The wizard's trick. Everything in pool is about that holy grail.

Compare that to snooker, or to pool in Europe or Asia, and what do you find? Much, MUCH more regimented instruction and structured syllabus, and less reliance or searches for that "magic pill."

That's why you're seeing European players ruling the roost lately when it comes to tournaments, Mosconi Cup, etc.

And unless something is done to change this "roll your own" training mindset of the U.S. pool players, it's only going to get worse.

-Sean


Thanks for your response. so, which of these flaws do you think are the most prevalent in top ranked pool players (as opposed to amateurs or short stops)?

Also, someone once drew an analogy between golf and pool. At one time, golf instruction was very unscientific and inconsistent. Over time, it has become much more scientific, regimented, and uniform...the net impact has been a consistent and significant improvement in the level of play worldwide. In pool, it seems as if a similar phenomenon has occurred, just not necessarily in the US.
 
sfleinen is SPOT ON!

Snooker players (both in Europe and Asia) practice their fundamentals for many hours a day. I once read an interview with a top pro snooker player (forgot his name) he said that even the best of the best practice the blue of the spot 3-4 hours every single day.

Pool in China is tought in almost the same way, I wouldnt be surprised if they do the same in Taiwan. My instructor is ranked top 10 in China and is a very "old school" guy.

I think he get a hard on by the word "Repetition" and "Follow through"

Sorry...but what is the "blue of the spot"?
 
Sorry...but what is the "blue of the spot"?

think it means blue 'off' the spot....or maybe read it as 'pot the blue from its spot'

so the blue ball which in snooker is placed in the very center of the table, and presumably they practice potting it from distance.

Not sure why they'd spend 4hrs a day potting the blue since it's not that common a shot really...maybe it's just a way of saying they spend 4hrs practicing long pots.
 
after playing snooker for years and watching snooker matches online of different pros i have come to the conclusion yall are smoking some good shit over there in England. Give any top player over here a year of playing with the better players over there and i think they adapt and will play even with their best. WTH our fundementals are every bit as good as theirs, we just dont play the game on that equipment,once we have for a year,you would see our top players on top over there too, despite what yall think your fundamentals and attitude isnt any better then ours. I say the snooker pros are just legends in their own minds,give me a break man. 6 x 12 table you tell me i cant make a 5 foot shot across the table at a makeable angle into a 3,5 inch pocket with a smaller ball, i have to call BULLSHIT. I have played on 5x10 snooker tables that were just as tight or tighter and played just fine after i got used to the pocket speed and at what angle you can pocket balls at,or play safe. So where can you go in the US and play on a 6x12 to practice,i only know of one table at Chrises billiards in Chicago. If you cant practice on the equipment you cant adapt to it. Those tables are in exellent condition, any we have are old and ran down,give us the equipment and let us play daily and then talk shit.

:thumbup:

I love this guy.
 
after playing snooker for years and watching snooker matches online of different pros i have come to the conclusion yall are smoking some good shit over there in England. Give any top player over here a year of playing with the better players over there and i think they adapt and will play even with their best. WTH our fundementals are every bit as good as theirs, we just dont play the game on that equipment,once we have for a year,you would see our top players on top over there too, despite what yall think your fundamentals and attitude isnt any better then ours. I say the snooker pros are just legends in their own minds,give me a break man. 6 x 12 table you tell me i cant make a 5 foot shot across the table at a makeable angle into a 3,5 inch pocket with a smaller ball, i have to call BULLSHIT. I have played on 5x10 snooker tables that were just as tight or tighter and played just fine after i got used to the pocket speed and at what angle you can pocket balls at,or play safe. So where can you go in the US and play on a 6x12 to practice,i only know of one table at Chrises billiards in Chicago. If you cant practice on the equipment you cant adapt to it. Those tables are in exellent condition, any we have are old and ran down,give us the equipment and let us play daily and then talk shit.

lol, what a post. If you're going to take that line, your pros (barring one) can barely compete with our pros in pool.
 
think it means blue 'off' the spot....or maybe read it as 'pot the blue from its spot'

so the blue ball which in snooker is placed in the very center of the table, and presumably they practice potting it from distance.

Not sure why they'd spend 4hrs a day potting the blue since it's not that common a shot really...maybe it's just a way of saying they spend 4hrs practicing long pots.

It's just a way of staying in stroke. When (American) pool players realise hitting the CB good is more important than hitting the OB correctly, there will be progress.

To address the OP, the most glaring difference I see is how (American) pool players push the cue through. They are not straight and there is a lot of up and down movement on the swing.

How anyone can actually play like that is beyond me. Keep the damn cue level already.
 
Exactly, 😳


Why am I the Colonel? Because I always get the chicken

Firstly, nobody outside north America has ever heard of a single American pool player, with he possible exception of Earl Strickland. Even then, nobody knows what he looks like.

Secondly, use the signature function, eh?
 
Rubbish. Anyone can apply to qualifying school. Even pool players.

And how does going to a "qualifying school' make it an "open shop"? I'm very familiar with the way pool and snooker are (highly) organized, from the amatuer leagues up through the qualifications for EuroTour events. Not a bad thing, but not something that would entice an unemployed "pro" pool player to drop his action over here, move to a country with a higher cost of living and trudge his way up through a system for an indeterminate period of time before he's qualified to enter a paying event.

Now, if I'm from a country where snooker is popular, I'd have the opportunity to work on the game and get to a level that maybe gives me an expectation of success...but you can count the number of snooker tables in the U.S. on one hand.
 
And how does going to a "qualifying school' make it an "open shop"? I'm very familiar with the way pool and snooker are (highly) organized, from the amatuer leagues up through the qualifications for EuroTour events. Not a bad thing, but not something that would entice an unemployed "pro" pool player to drop his action over here, move to a country with a higher cost of living and trudge his way up through a system for an indeterminate period of time before he's qualified to enter a paying event.

Now, if I'm from a country where snooker is popular, I'd have the opportunity to work on the game and get to a level that maybe gives me an expectation of success...but you can count the number of snooker tables in the U.S. on one hand.

There is no "qualification through amateur snooker and up through the EuroTour Events" That is simply poppycock young man...

It is far from a closed shop. The fact remains anyone can apply to have a go. Even pool players, for example:

Alex Pagulayan, Cory Duel and Chris Melling

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=358394

http://www.worldsnookerqschool.com/order-of-merit

It's a simple system. If you don't think you are good enough, don't bother entering. If you do think you are good enough, then give it a bash:

http://www.worldsnookerqschool.com/

:thumbup:
 
think it means blue 'off' the spot....or maybe read it as 'pot the blue from its spot'

so the blue ball which in snooker is placed in the very center of the table, and presumably they practice potting it from distance.

Not sure why they'd spend 4hrs a day potting the blue since it's not that common a shot really...maybe it's just a way of saying they spend 4hrs practicing long pots.

OK...that makes sense. Sounds similar to the "Mighty-X" drill from Kinister....a great drill for "straightening" out a stroke....can only imagine what it can do for you on a 12x6!
 
There is no "qualification through amateur snooker and up through the EuroTour Events" That is simply poppycock young man...

It is far from a closed shop. The fact remains anyone can apply to have a go. Even pool players, for example:

Alex Pagulayan, Cory Duel and Chris Melling

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=358394

http://www.worldsnookerqschool.com/order-of-merit

It's a simple system. If you don't think you are good enough, don't bother entering. If you do think you are good enough, then give it a bash:

http://www.worldsnookerqschool.com/

:thumbup:

That's right. The WPBSA has done all it can to open Snooker up to the world and up-coming players and I believe they will do more. Otherwise they'll see a decline in participation (not that they haven't) as in American Pool. Just my opinion :thumb up:
Pool is choosing to go the other way and close its ranks which is a dead end move. Declining sports need to open up not close ranks. Just my opinion..!
 
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think it means blue 'off' the spot....or maybe read it as 'pot the blue from its spot'

so the blue ball which in snooker is placed in the very center of the table, and presumably they practice potting it from distance.

Not sure why they'd spend 4hrs a day potting the blue since it's not that common a shot really...maybe it's just a way of saying they spend 4hrs practicing long pots.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the Blue is your saver...when you get out of line for the Pink or Black, usually the Blue is available to keep your break open; in that case, you really have to be adept at hitting the blue (into the side) at various angles to get back in line. In that case, a player would be well advised to make sure they can ALWAYS sink that shot when they need to get back in line. (But then again, I'm a pool player, so what do I know?) :wink:
 
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the Blue is your saver...when you get out of line for the Pink or Black, usually the Blue is available to keep your break open; in that case, you really have to be adept at hitting the blue (into the side) at various angles to get back in line. In that case, a player would be well advised to make sure they can ALWAYS sink that shot when they need to get back in line. (But then again, I'm a pool player, so what do I know?) :wink:

LADS - it's really not Brain Surgery. Snooker players focus on making the shot. In simple terms - pot the ball. This simple and most basic idea IF MASTERED will carry a cue-sports player deep into any cue sport he / she chooses to participate in.
Hense the shooting accuracy of a top Snooker player is going to be better than that of his / her Pool counterpart. This is because they have spent longer hours achieving this by shooting on a 12x6ft table, with smaller balls and tighter pockets.

NOW THEN - The pool player comes into their own when it come to cue ball control. Because the cue ball is bigger, there is so much more a top pool player can do with it. THIS IS THIER ADVANTAGE over a snooker player, especially when it come to using English / any spin or jump technique. A pool player has more in their locker when is come to being creative with shot making - and guess what? Pool is a more creative / flare game than Snooker!

Proof: Play months of Pool and then revert back to Snooker. Positional play has improved because the player has learnt greater pool stroke & cue ball controlling techniques. Just my opinion :thumbup:
 
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Rubbish. Anyone can apply to qualifying school. Even pool players.

I agree about the WPBSA system, it's very fair.
In 1980, Steve Davis had to play in a qualifying round to make it to the
Crucible.......at the end of 1981, he was number 1 on the ranking list.

If you play well, there is nothing stopping you from getting to the top.

John Spenser busted the old 'closed shop' system in the 60s.
 
Perhaps I should elaborate on what I meant by attitude.

What does it take to be successful in the modern game?
Let’s use Shane as an example.

He has good mechanics and a level head he has put in the hard work on the practice table and challenge matches and has become a very successful player, perhaps he has even raised the bar a little.
It could be argued that his break is a big part of that but I still believe he has raised the bar some in regards to the open play of the game.
The reason I believe that is his unforced error count is much lower than the rest of the field.
The game is won and lost on unforced errors and the bottom line is he makes less of them and his mechanics are a big part of it.

So when was the last time the bar was raised in pool, Efren, Earl? I would say so for arguments sake. With shot making skills and consistency at a higher level than the rest of the field, that is what made them successful, they also had a better fundamental approach.
So now we are in a different era, the game has expanded to other shores and all of these new players have brought about a change in the standard of play.

Some of these players particularly the UK players have been exposed to snooker even if they didn’t play pro they certainly played some and were brought up with the mindset of the importance of the fundamental side of the game.
Down low over the cue, rock solid stance, straight stroke, staying down on the shot, no movement etc, all the things that are required for the accuracy and consistency of the modern Snooker pro.
Without these solid mechanics you cannot make it in the modern game, you need this precision to create openings and to keep errors to a minimum.

Safety plays from tight under the bottom cushion or a long opening red demand this type of accuracy and consistency or you will get punished. That is up 12 ft away and you have to hit those safeties time and time again and return past the balk line consistently to prevent your opponent from getting his hand on the table and knocking in a long one, this game is not played from 5ft away that’s utter mindless rambling from people with zero knowledge of match play Snooker.
The modern game is often won in one inning so errors need to be kept to a minimum and often the only way in is to knock in a long red. Look at the stats of some of the modern players, 95%+ pot success rates, 85% safety success, 65% long ball success, these are massive numbers to put up in match play.

The reason they are at this level is because the game demanded it, Steve Davis came along in the 80’s and was a ball making machine with a lock up tactical game that blew away the old guard with his ruthless mechanical consistency. The old guard were the players that learned to play in the local social club and just picked up a cue and went with it, none of them had any formal training or the mechanics to compete with the likes of Davis.

Then along comes a new army of players that followed his lead, Hendry, Higgins and of course Ronnie all modelled after Davis. And for some perspective there is Neal Robertson with over 90 centuries in the 2013/2014 season so far, Alex Higgins only made 46 in his whole career.



Attitude.

Not being one to mince words, arrogance.
That is the only way I can describe the attitude amongst the American players.
Here is an example of what I mean.
When Stuart Pettman showed up at the bigfoot challenge and destroyed the field at a game he doesn’t play, banging in 2 tons along the way all the American players on the comm could do were ridicule his lack of pattern knowledge.
Instead of saying hey this guy has something extraordinary that we could learn from they were just saying things clearly borne out of jealousy.

Players like Pettman, Melling, Drago etc are ball potting machines, though they lack some of the finer points of the game of pool there is no denying they can pot balls with more accuracy than the rest of the field and why wouldn’t they, it’s a simple fact that errors are magnified as the distance increases, it’s all down to the mechanics and is proof that the two games do not require as different a mechanical approach as many would like to think and only a fool would choose to ignore what these players bring to the table.

Imagine training up and coming young American players in these strong fundamental skills, along with the knowledge of the game of pool they could raise the bar again and become more competitive on the world stage, heck you may even regain the Mosconi in five or ten years.

Forget about the role models of the past, it’s time to move on and embrace aspects of other disciplines that can improve on what you have. Stand up stances, wobbly strokes BHE pivoting and silly aiming systems are not going to get you there, the advantages of a strong fundamental approach are clear for all to see tried and tested and as advertised the best part is it’s free and is not for the sole purpose of boosting some ones ego or out there to make money. As the new equipment gets tighter and or larger you will need new tools to be better.
Just because it is not an American invention is not a good reason for your arrogance to get in the way.
 
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