Only "issue" I have, is you guys disagreeing with post #54.
Great stroke
- Thread starter jburkm002
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Only "issue" I have, is you guys disagreeing with post #54.
You are missing the point that if you hit them at the same speed, at the same angle, in the same place, your results will be the same.
edit: To clarify, if you want to hit the cb at 6mph, and you do hit the cb at 6mph, you will get the exact same results with a decelerating stroke as you will an accelerating stroke. Same with poke stroke, as you will a smooth stroke. Same no matter the length of follow through. All the cb knows it that it got hit at 6 mph. Where those other things matter is in your delivery to hit the cb at the 6 mph that you desired to hit it at. Those other things will change your speed and accuracy of hit.
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When you say ANGLE are you referring to say, backhand or parallel english? Sorry don't know all the terms for applying english and cue alignment. Think there is pivot, backhand and parallel that I know of. I suggest players set up a shot and experiment with all techniques. The results could be surprising. I have seen lots of great shots. I have at times asked. "how did you do that". ' oh, I played high right". Well high right didn't work when I tried it. So many facet to pool. So many ways to play any given shot. That's what makes it a great game. I am always trying to learn something new. I will never know everything.
YES! When you use backhand english, you are hitting the cb at a different angle than when you use parallel english. However, I also mean the angle of the cue relative to the table surface. The more elevated the cue, the more spin to forward motion ratio, and hence, much more swerve.
edit again: To clarify again, when using backhand english or parallel english, you actually get the same amount of deflection. The difference is, when using parallel, you are still aiming down the shot line, so your deflection takes you off the shot line. When using backhand, you are actually aiming off the shot line, and your deflection puts you on the shot line. So, using backhand english, it can seem that you have no deflection. You actually have the same amount, it's just cancelled by your initial aiming off line.
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British snooker coach, Del Hill, divides players into drivers and peckers.
Wow Neil! you must be using High squirt shaft, Sorry you are partially wrong. Parallel has max deflection, BHE depends on pivot, if you at Pivot no deflection what so ever (assuming no swerve) , CB goes where you aim. (do not aim with stick, aim with ghost ball to know)
I don't think either shot depicted is a good example of a stroke shot. You don't really need a great stroke to be able to execute those shots. You just need to be accurate. Then again maybe I'm getting a great stroke mixed up with a powerful one, a la someone like Larry Nevel. I guess when I think of a great stroke I think of someone that can really draw the ball or really bend it using force follow. I can pretty easily complete those couple of shots depicted and I don't have what I consider to be a great stroke.
As far as the whole parallel vs. back hand English and coming at the cue ball from all these different angles is concerned -- I thought it had been proven that there is really only one angle of attack on the cue ball for a given shot. So if you are going to hit the cue ball at an object ball using 2:30 English the method you use to setup your shot -- whether it be parallel English (which is sort of misleading because it's not really parallel) or backhand English, or any combination including front hand English -- they will all get you to the same angle of attack on the cue ball. I will have to review this point, but I think I'm remembering that correctly.
Lastly, I’m ready for this follow through doesn’t matter talk to come to an end. In an effort to make a somewhat physics based point about cue tip – cue ball contact period being so brief, many have thrown the baby out with the bath water. When throwing a baseball there are only a couple of things that a player can focus on. Where they set up their arm before the throw and where their arm finishes when the throw is complete are two main areas of focus. Certainly an arm does not have to finish near the outside of the opposing leg’s knee to throw a baseball but this is still a good finishing position for the throwing arm. Players typically cannot make adjustments to their arm after the throw begins, so focusing on the finish position is very important. Likewise, pool players cannot adjust their strokes in the middle of the delivery so having a nice repeatable follow through is vitally important. Of course this doesn’t mean that you need to have an infinitely long follow through but you will have one – so why not pay attention to it and utilize the feedback it can give you?
As far as the whole parallel vs. back hand English and coming at the cue ball from all these different angles is concerned -- I thought it had been proven that there is really only one angle of attack on the cue ball for a given shot. So if you are going to hit the cue ball at an object ball using 2:30 English the method you use to setup your shot -- whether it be parallel English (which is sort of misleading because it's not really parallel) or backhand English, or any combination including front hand English -- they will all get you to the same angle of attack on the cue ball. I will have to review this point, but I think I'm remembering that correctly.
Lastly, I’m ready for this follow through doesn’t matter talk to come to an end. In an effort to make a somewhat physics based point about cue tip – cue ball contact period being so brief, many have thrown the baby out with the bath water. When throwing a baseball there are only a couple of things that a player can focus on. Where they set up their arm before the throw and where their arm finishes when the throw is complete are two main areas of focus. Certainly an arm does not have to finish near the outside of the opposing leg’s knee to throw a baseball but this is still a good finishing position for the throwing arm. Players typically cannot make adjustments to their arm after the throw begins, so focusing on the finish position is very important. Likewise, pool players cannot adjust their strokes in the middle of the delivery so having a nice repeatable follow through is vitally important. Of course this doesn’t mean that you need to have an infinitely long follow through but you will have one – so why not pay attention to it and utilize the feedback it can give you?
No, I am not wrong. I know parallel has apparent max deflection. BHE does not have a magical pivot point that eliminates deflection. The deflection is actually the same as parallel. But, it appears to eliminate deflection because when you pivot, you are actually aiming down a different line because your cue is now angled.That different line has been pre-calculated (finding your pivot point length) to have the new angled cue line equal the deflection angle. Thus, it appears that you got no deflection.
Focusing on where your arm starts and finishes is a good point. And, should be done. However, the part where you stated that you cannot alter your stroke once started, is incorrect. Most do exactly that. It's called "steering" the cue. If one couldn't change that, the game would be much easier. It would mean that everyone has to have a straight stroke. Then, all one would have to do is learn the correct alignment for the shot.
Neil,
Here you said:
Then you replied to my post by saying:
On to the follow through...
You said:
Okay -- you're correction was warranted. However, my point remains. I imagine you would agree that a player cannot SUCCESSFULLY alter their stroke while in the middle of their delivery -- so all they have is their set position and their finish position to use as feedback for how they hit the ball. I suppose you could throw in the feel of the hit on the cue ball as well but I'll ignore that for the moment. Since a player can view their follow through after each and every shot it can be a very useful aid in determining whether or not they are cueing straight.
Also, I think a follow through can be too short. If a player only follows through a millimeter past the point at which they contact the cue ball there's a very good chance that they are hitting the cue ball with a decelerating stroke. On the other end of the spectrum, if a player is following through too far (think or Johnny Archer on his warp speed break shot), they are probably moving parts of their body that they shouldn't be. So for each player and for each shot there is probably an optimal amount of follow through. Discovering the proper amount of follow through is the tricky part but certainly the follow through is an important part of solid cueing.
Here you said:
Then you replied to my post by saying:
In the quote above I'm not even sure what you are saying, but they appear to contradict each other.Neil said:
On to the follow through...
You said:
Okay -- you're correction was warranted. However, my point remains. I imagine you would agree that a player cannot SUCCESSFULLY alter their stroke while in the middle of their delivery -- so all they have is their set position and their finish position to use as feedback for how they hit the ball. I suppose you could throw in the feel of the hit on the cue ball as well but I'll ignore that for the moment. Since a player can view their follow through after each and every shot it can be a very useful aid in determining whether or not they are cueing straight.
Also, I think a follow through can be too short. If a player only follows through a millimeter past the point at which they contact the cue ball there's a very good chance that they are hitting the cue ball with a decelerating stroke. On the other end of the spectrum, if a player is following through too far (think or Johnny Archer on his warp speed break shot), they are probably moving parts of their body that they shouldn't be. So for each player and for each shot there is probably an optimal amount of follow through. Discovering the proper amount of follow through is the tricky part but certainly the follow through is an important part of solid cueing.
Anyone who disagrees with this either doesn't understand it, or doesn't understand pool.
Having a "great stroke" means being in full control of these 3 variables, even when you hit the CB hard. Those pros who seem to be able to move the ball more "effortlessly" are better at timing their muscle contractions so as to maximize speed at contact, and have eradicated "steering" or "holding back" types of muscle involvement. This means their forward muscle contractions can happen unimpeded and develop more cue speed, and because they're not steering, this speed does not cause them to lose accuracy of tip placement or stroke direction.
That's pretty much everything at play. Acceleration only matters in that you have to accelerate to develop the cue speed. Follow-through is just a symptom of an unimpeded forward motion. Wrist action is just a trick to develop more cue speed. Grip tightness only matters if it causes you to tighten up your "holding back" muscles (which it does, for most people).
-Andrew
I personally tried to work on a textbook like stroke for months. All the things you read in books, etc. I use to have difficulty drawing the cb for long distances effortlessly. I did follow thru and all that etc etc.
After taking some lessons, I've come to realize I've had 3 flaws in my fundamentals and having worked heavily on those 3 flaws have changed my game an insane amount.
Like others I was so focused on the level of my cue, my grip , where to grip the cue, staying down, following thru etc. However, one thing that didn't receive proper attention to was the firmness of my bridge for the entire duration of the shot from when I prepare to take the shot to finish. When I first started focusing on the firmness of my bridge (open or closed) my hand and shoulder would cramp after a couple hours, but the positive results were almost instant.
The second flaw I had was the speed of my practice strokes. While I see a lot of players practice stroke much faster than I ever did, mine were too quick as well. Just slowing them down and making them shorter, gave me better control of how precisely i was hitting the cb where I want.
The third flaw was punching the ball. I followed thru on my strokes but I can say it was still punching for the most part. Slowing everything down really helped in preventing punching the ball. I think that's what really separates players and it's the punching.
For the past month plus, I spend maybe 4hrs a week just drawing in a straight line with no unwanted side spin on a long straight in shot. I can do it consistently now, but when I first started this was amazingly hard to do over and over consistently (especially for me to do so without a little bit of unwanted right spin). Also, doing this drill has gotten me to have that feel when you know you hit the cb right. I don't know how to describe it but when you know you hit that cb perfect or near it, the smooth and effortless feeling is there.
After taking some lessons, I've come to realize I've had 3 flaws in my fundamentals and having worked heavily on those 3 flaws have changed my game an insane amount.
Like others I was so focused on the level of my cue, my grip , where to grip the cue, staying down, following thru etc. However, one thing that didn't receive proper attention to was the firmness of my bridge for the entire duration of the shot from when I prepare to take the shot to finish. When I first started focusing on the firmness of my bridge (open or closed) my hand and shoulder would cramp after a couple hours, but the positive results were almost instant.
The second flaw I had was the speed of my practice strokes. While I see a lot of players practice stroke much faster than I ever did, mine were too quick as well. Just slowing them down and making them shorter, gave me better control of how precisely i was hitting the cb where I want.
The third flaw was punching the ball. I followed thru on my strokes but I can say it was still punching for the most part. Slowing everything down really helped in preventing punching the ball. I think that's what really separates players and it's the punching.
For the past month plus, I spend maybe 4hrs a week just drawing in a straight line with no unwanted side spin on a long straight in shot. I can do it consistently now, but when I first started this was amazingly hard to do over and over consistently (especially for me to do so without a little bit of unwanted right spin). Also, doing this drill has gotten me to have that feel when you know you hit the cb right. I don't know how to describe it but when you know you hit that cb perfect or near it, the smooth and effortless feeling is there.
Neil said:
To which Andrew replied:
Nobody really disagrees with what Neil said. It's just the implications of what it means. This is going to sound ridiculously obvious but I think some people are missing this -- we are NOT the cue ball. We are human beings. We do not get to feel what the cue ball feels. We have to rely on our bodies to take in the sensual information that is all around us. This is all the more reason why the follow through is important. It is important in every sport, apparently except for pool some would say. I think the problem is their resistance to acknowledge the importance of the follow through is really tied to their teaching of the preeminence of the pendulum stroke.
I just don't think those two teachings need to be mutually exclusive. You can shoot with a pendulum stroke and still view the follow through as an important part of the cueing process.
To which Andrew replied:
Nobody really disagrees with what Neil said. It's just the implications of what it means. This is going to sound ridiculously obvious but I think some people are missing this -- we are NOT the cue ball. We are human beings. We do not get to feel what the cue ball feels. We have to rely on our bodies to take in the sensual information that is all around us. This is all the more reason why the follow through is important. It is important in every sport, apparently except for pool some would say. I think the problem is their resistance to acknowledge the importance of the follow through is really tied to their teaching of the preeminence of the pendulum stroke.
I just don't think those two teachings need to be mutually exclusive. You can shoot with a pendulum stroke and still view the follow through as an important part of the cueing process.
Very astute
Very astute observation Alphadog. I have always like Jerry Brieseth's definition of a good stroke - a graceful throwing motion. Also - I have noticed the greats can move the cue ball around with less stroke speed BECAUSE they take advantage of the outer parts of the cue ball (and enlarge the pocket size because they aren't blasting balls in).
Set up a shot - cue ball 2 diamonds up and the object ball 3 diamonds up (aiming straight at the head rail). Try hitting the cue ball law and drawing the cue ball back and hitting the rail before the object ball rebounds of the end rail and beats it there.
The ability to spin the ball hard yet hit it soft. Buddy was a master at this.
This will prob end up like a aiming thread
My 2¢ smooth acceleration through an accurate hit on the cb.In the case of draw,aimimg low on the cb and hitting low! Less skillful players aim low but
their subconcious takes over-says that is too low,and a higher hit/less draw
is the result.
Very astute observation Alphadog. I have always like Jerry Brieseth's definition of a good stroke - a graceful throwing motion. Also - I have noticed the greats can move the cue ball around with less stroke speed BECAUSE they take advantage of the outer parts of the cue ball (and enlarge the pocket size because they aren't blasting balls in).
Set up a shot - cue ball 2 diamonds up and the object ball 3 diamonds up (aiming straight at the head rail). Try hitting the cue ball law and drawing the cue ball back and hitting the rail before the object ball rebounds of the end rail and beats it there.
The ability to spin the ball hard yet hit it soft. Buddy was a master at this.
Chris, yes, it does appear to contradict. Let me put it another way-
1. Whether I use backhand or parallel english, the cb will deflect the same amount, and for a given speed and distance, the swerve will be the same. That is a given.
2. If using no english, the shot is a 40 degree angle (for example) Now, if I use backhand english, I am altering my cue angle to compensate for the deflection and swerve so the cb comes into the ob on that 40 deg. angle.
3. If I use parallel english, I am not aiming down that 40 deg. angle anymore. I am aiming farther over, and allowing the swerve to bring me back in to hit the ob to make it. This means, that my actual angle of attack on the ob is straighter than with BHE. The deflection and swerve stayed the same amount, but I changed the angles they were used at. Coming in straighter on the ob, when the cb spins off the rail, it stays closer to the rail and goes uptable more. ( while advantageous in certain situations like this one, parallel english is overall much harder to use correctly)
To the follow through- yes, it is a necessary part of the stroke. But, it is like the exhaust in a car. It is a byproduct of what really is important. If you stick a potato in your exhaust pipe, the car will stop running. That does not mean that your car runs on exhaust because it stopped running when you stopped the exhaust. The exhaust is nothing more than a necessary byproduct of the car running properly. The follow through is nothing more than a necessary byproduct of a proper stroking action.
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That drill will teach you how to spin a ball without hitting it hard. Best I have done is about a half diamond past the side pocket on a bar table. When you can do that, you know what a good stroke feels like.:wink:
Neil,
The part bolded above I believe is incorrect. No matter how you go about imparting english -- whether it's bankhand english, parallel english, fronthand english, or any combination of the above, there is only 1 angle of attack on the cue ball. They all bring you to the same point.
I do not have the expertise to get too thick into the weeds on this and I'm not finding much in my AZ searches but I did see a post from Patrick Johnson on Dr. Dave's site.
PJ said this on http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#BHE
So if someone stood near you and prematurely stopped your follow through would that be a bad thing or not? If they stopped it 1 inch after you hit the cue ball what would happen? Would this negatively effect your stroke?
Of course it would.
If a player does this to themselves it can have the same effect. So yes, the follow through is a byproduct of a proper stroking action just as you said. But it is certainly a NECESSARY byproduct -- just as you said.
***Edit***
I change my mind, the follow through is not a byproduct of the stroke it is an integral part of it. The stroke does not end when the stick hits the cue ball, it continues on until reaching its final resting point.
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I wish you live near by Wash DC I would show you. Until then we both are right. Do one test for me aim on 100% straight shot with center cb, now close your eyes pivot cue and shoot, if bridge at pivot you will not miss, if you bridge shorter you will over cut . Make sure to use top right or left, fast speed to avoid cb sliding and swerve