CTErs vs. Ghostballers

[336Robin]

We have a lot of dissention on here between the CTE'rs and Ghostballers. My idea is why don't we follow in the example of John Barton and Lou Figueroa and play a match. We could make this a lot of fun and arrange matches by state and see who wins the overall 50 states. So who ever wins the most states will be the King of the Continent. No professional players allowed. The requirement is that you be a pool player and not for a living and not a known gambler of renown. Just a regular guy who likes to play pool when he can.

The idea is that even if the competition is over that people can step up and challenge the winner and we can reshuffle the results as time goes by. No advertised Gambling, play for pride.

Someone steps up for his state and says he will play. Then the other side has to find a player in that state. A location is picked and a match will be made. It could be a standard race or it could be a marathon to so many ahead. No spot. It could be multi discipline as well. Sort of a tough man competition.

So what do you guys think of this idea?

 

[jburkm002]

What if you play by feel? Don't leave us out. I don't play on 9 footers. BB only. Kind of bar vs pool hall thing in our area.

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[336Robin]

feel vs. cter

What if you play by feel? Don't leave us out. I don't play on 9 footers. BB only. Kind of bar vs pool hall thing in our area.

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I would think a feel player falls in the same category as a ghost baller....and a cter might fall into the same category and a defined system user like 90/90 or something like that.

I think you pick the side you want to represent and you play for it. I think this could make news as well. Someone could show up to write about it and post it on here. I just see a lot of possibilities for competition and activity that could be good if done in a gentlemanly fashion.

 

[Neil]

Playing would mean nothing at all. If you want some kind of test, it would have to be just a shotmaking test.(And there are several of them already done on here) Leaving all the rest of the game out of the equation as much as possible.

Also, I believe most, if not all, gb users are actually using contact point to contact point and not even realizing it. So, how does one determine if someone is actually using the system they say they are?

 

[sfleinen]

I would think a feel player falls in the same category as a ghost baller....and a cter might fall into the same category and a defined system user like 90/90 or something like that.

I think you pick the side you want to represent and you play for it. I think this could make news as well. Someone could show up to write about it and post it on here. I just see a lot of possibilities for competition and activity that could be good if done in a gentlemanly fashion.

And what would be the game of choice? As the previous poster mentions, he's only a barbox player. I'm on the opposite side of the fence -- I play only on 9-footers (and snooker tables on occasion), and even then, I'm just not into short-rack rotation games.

Count me in for the "pony up your fundamentals, and just get down and shoot the shot dammit" camp (i.e. the ghostball or feel camp). But not specifically for the purposes of advocacy! (As most know, I'm a fan of whatever you need to shoot and enjoy pool better.) Rather, I would enjoy the match-up, the conversation and the company, and the competition.

-Sean

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Rather than a match, I'd suggest each side picks several key shots that demonstrate the ease and power of their system. Both sides hit each shot and discuss to learn from the other. And Robin Kelly would be a very good person to have present.

 

[jburkm002]

I don't think how you pocket balls is necessary to debate. I would be interested in someone who is advanced in CTE showing me how it relates to bank shots. Yes I bought the DVD'S and yes I was one of those that weren't smart enough to figure it out. Not sure I would ever change how I shoot a single object ball. Might be interested in a sound banking or kicking system. Personal belief. Kicking systems make the most sense. Kinda explains why there are diamonds on the table.

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[336Robin]

Viability and Method

Playing would mean nothing at all. If you want some kind of test, it would have to be just a shotmaking test.(And there are several of them already done on here) Leaving all the rest of the game out of the equation as much as possible.

Also, I believe most, if not all, gb users are actually using contact point to contact point and not even realizing it. So, how does one determine if someone is actually using the system they say they are?

Neil,
I have to cordially disagree. There is more to pool than shotmaking. Viability and overall use are also parts of the equation. I wouldn't get excited about traveling to a shot making contest but to watch someone play would be nice and might also generate some dollars for a room owner. I like the activity. Contact point is a part of the Ghost Ball method. Where else is a Ghost Ball to be delivered to?

 

[336Robin]

sure

Rather than a match, I'd suggest each side picks several key shots that demonstrate the ease and power of their system. Both sides hit each shot and discuss to learn from the other. And Robin Kelly would be a very good person to have present.

Not a bad idea Matt but 50 state travel on my dime isnt in my plans but I would surely go where I could. I do retire in October and would like to see the competition.

 

[336Robin]

Standards

And what would be the game of choice? As the previous poster mentions, he's only a barbox player. I'm on the opposite side of the fence -- I play only on 9-footers (and snooker tables on occasion), and even then, I'm just not into short-rack rotation games.

Count me in for the "pony up your fundamentals, and just get down and shoot the shot dammit" camp (i.e. the ghostball or feel camp). But not specifically for the purposes of advocacy! (As most know, I'm a fan of whatever you need to shoot and enjoy pool better.) Rather, I would enjoy the match-up, the conversation and the company, and the competition.

-Sean

There would surely have to be some standard things set, games, races etc. in the planning stage.

 

[Neil]

Neil,
I have to cordially disagree. There is more to pool than shotmaking. Viability and overall use are also parts of the equation. I wouldn't get excited about traveling to a shot making contest but to watch someone play would be nice and might also generate some dollars for a room owner. I like the activity. Contact point is a part of the Ghost Ball method. Where else is a Ghost Ball to be delivered to?

I totally agree that there is much more to pool than just shotmaking. That is why I don't see the validity of a test on aiming systems that contains so much more than just the aiming system.

As far as ghost ball, True ghost ball means picking a spot on the table where the center of the ghost ball is, then shooting at that spot on the table. Like Duckie advocates with using the arrow for training. Except, once the arrow is removed, you are just guessing. Most people that say they just use feel are actually looking at the contact point, then letting their subconscious put the correct part of the cb to the contact point. They are actually using what Jimmy Reid calls the equal-opposite method of aiming and not realizing it. If you are looking at the ob last, you aren't using ghost ball.

 

[336Robin]

your version

I totally agree that there is much more to pool than just shotmaking. That is why I don't see the validity of a test on aiming systems that contains so much more than just the aiming system.

As far as ghost ball, True ghost ball means picking a spot on the table where the center of the ghost ball is, then shooting at that spot on the table. Like Duckie advocates with using the arrow for training. Except, once the arrow is removed, you are just guessing. Most people that say they just use feel are actually looking at the contact point, then letting their subconscious put the correct part of the cb to the contact point. They are actually using what Jimmy Reid calls the equal-opposite method of aiming and not realizing it. If you are looking at the ob last, you aren't using ghost ball.

Ghost Ball is a delivery method and technique, I dont see it as an aiming technique and saying Ghost Ball Players arent allowed to fire their Ghost Ball at a contact point seems a tad ridiculous to me. Equal and Opposite is method sure. Nothing keeping a Ghost Baller from delivering his Ghost to it.

 

[Neil]

Ghost Ball is a delivery method and technique, I dont see it as an aiming technique and saying Ghost Ball Players arent allowed to fire their Ghost Ball at a contact point seems a tad ridiculous to me. Equal and Opposite is method sure. Nothing keeping a Ghost Baller from delivering his Ghost to it.

Well, I can't help it that you don't understand what ghost ball really is. I find it rather ridiculous that you don't consider ghost ball aiming as an aiming technique. :scratchhead:

 

[336Robin]

So you shouldnt object

Well, I can't help it that you don't understand what ghost ball really is. I find it rather ridiculous that you don't consider ghost ball aiming as an aiming technique. :scratchhead:

The biggest thing here is you want to legislate the use of it. Ghost Ball Players aim as they do, there isnt a set rule as to how they do it and you trying to control it is what seem rather odd.

So you would want to play a ghost ball player and not allow him the right to aim his shot they way he wants. Well ok thats fine, how are you going to tell what he delivers his ghost ball to?

For further proof of CTE....how about the viability of CTE vs. Everything else...

Is that more clear? If you use the Ghost Ball , you use the Ghost Ball....not by Neils rules...are you the Aim Police?

 

[Neil]

The biggest thing here is you want to legislate the use of it. Ghost Ball Players aim as they do, there isnt a set rule as to how they do it and you trying to control it is what seem rather odd.

So you would want to play a ghost ball player and not allow him the right to aim his shot they way he wants. Well ok thats fine, how are you going to tell what he delivers his ghost ball to?

For further proof of CTE....how about the viability of CTE vs. Everything else...

Is that more clear? If you use the Ghost Ball , you use the Ghost Ball....not by Neils rules...are you the Aim Police?

I don't understand your problem here other than you don't know what ghost ball aiming is. I'm not legislating anything. Ghost ball aiming has been around a lot longer than I have, and there is a defined way to use it. You aim the center of the cb to the center of the ghost ball. That is ghost ball aiming method. I didn't devise it, I didn't "legislate" the terms of it. It's been around for a long, long time.

If a guy says he is aiming using ghost ball, but uses something else, well, that only means that he isn't using ghost ball. No different than if someone says they are using CTE/Pro 1 but are actually using 90/90/Pro 1. No way to tell the difference but by the persons word on what they are using.

 

[336Robin]

Ghost Ball

I don't understand your problem here other than you don't know what ghost ball aiming is. I'm not legislating anything. Ghost ball aiming has been around a lot longer than I have, and there is a defined way to use it. You aim the center of the cb to the center of the ghost ball. That is ghost ball aiming method. I didn't devise it, I didn't "legislate" the terms of it. It's been around for a long, long time.

If a guy says he is aiming using ghost ball, but uses something else, well, that only means that he isn't using ghost ball. No different than if someone says they are using CTE/Pro 1 but are actually using 90/90/Pro 1. No way to tell the difference but by the persons word on what they are using.

Ok well make up a swear statement and require that people sign it. If a person uses the ghost ball, I dont think I would require them to aim at the center of the ghost ball. Whats wrong with English in the Ghost Ball Method? making allowances for English is that allowed? Do I have to place the Ghost Ball where you say? I know what the Ghost Ball is and how its used and how many people probably quit playing pool because they dont understand how to make it work.

I find it interesting that instead of talking about setting up some competition between people who use CTE and the Ghost Ball as they have learned to....we are arguing about tiddly winks. Could it be fear factor?

 

[Neil]

Ok well make up a swear statement and require that people sign it. If a person uses the ghost ball, I dont think I would require them to aim at the center of the ghost ball. Whats wrong with English in the Ghost Ball Method? making allowances for English is that allowed? Do I have to place the Ghost Ball where you say? I know what the Ghost Ball is and how its used and how many people probably quit playing pool because they dont understand how to make it work.

I find it interesting that instead of talking about setting up some competition between people who use the Ghost Ball as they have learned to....we are arguing about tiddly winks. Could it be fear factor?

Whoa there, back the truck up. You proposed members play each other to determine the validity of aiming systems. As has been stated by people on both sides of the fence, actual play doesn't determine that issue in the least. Only a potting test would come close. So you want to compare CTE to GB, but the GB user doesn't have to use GB, he can use any old method he chooses to use. Then you ask whats wrong with english in GB. I don't know, You asked it out of the blue, why don't you tell us?

Then you ask if you have to put the ghost ball where I say. Are you kidding me? Do you even know what a ghost ball is? Why on earth would you even ask something like that?

I'm not being nitpicky in the least. Words mean things. If you want to use ghost ball, go right ahead. I could care less. But don't sit there and swear by ghost ball when you are using something else. Just because you can't describe how you aim, does not mean that you get to lump what ever method you use into ghost ball aiming. Ghost ball aiming has parameters to it, just like every other method does.

Quit trying to make me look like I'm nitpicky when the whole problem is just that you don't know what ghost ball really is and want to lump a bunch of other ways to aim into ghost ball. You say you wouldn't require someone to aim at the center of the ghost ball. Well, then they aren't using ghost ball. Plain and simple. Just like Stan now had to come out with the term "real CTE" to differentiate between what CTE really is and how to use it from those that come up with their own way of using it. The difference is, real CTE works. The other ways are not nearly as reliable. Ghost ball means aiming at the center of the ghost ball. Not a very reliable way to aim. Many want to claim they use ghost ball, when they aren't. Their way may be very reliable, but they aren't using ghost ball.

If you want to claim the validity of a system, then at least actually use that system in your tests and not something else and then claim your system works or doesn't work.

As far as your "fear factor" statement, that is just ludicrous at best. Cheap shot on your part to try and make points when you have nothing else to stand on. I fear no one on the table. There are thousands of people that can beat me. No new news there. Also, I have taken every shotmaking test ever put on this forum, and done well on all of them. Don't see any of your scores on any of them. Is that a fear factor on your part??

 

[Ralph Kramden]

I use both aiming systems.. I always use CTE on shots less than 30 degrees..
and combinations of ghost ball and CTE, for many cut shots over 30 degrees.

 

[jburkm002]

I would challenge that a skills test of fundamental might reveal more than what system you use. The old hit the cue ball down the table and have it come back and hit your tip. Hitting a straight in shot using center english and stopping the cue ball dead with no spin. There are other tests we could come up with. Pass the test and you can talk about any aiming system you want. Chances are most players that can pass the test don't need an aiming system. The ones that can't pass the test look to an aiming system thinking they can't aim. The only issue I have with aiming systems is they don't verify that you don't know how to aim first. Falls is line with trying every tip because that's the issue. Going to LD shafts maybe even that will fix it. What do the pros use. If it works for them it's sure to make me shoot better. There is no quick fix. It's natural talent. If you lack that you can get lessons that might help. Don't want lessons. Stop playing pool games. And just work on you weaknesses. Find that shot you hate most. Shoot it a hundred times until you fear it no more. That's what the pros do. They shoot a shot until they can't miss it. Amateurs shoot it until they make it. How many a people set up a shot and miss it 5 times then make it and go to the next shot. No. Shoot it over and over until you can't miss. May be boring but that's how you advance.

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[336Robin]

Drivel

Whoa there, back the truck up. You proposed members play each other to determine the validity of aiming systems. As has been stated by people on both sides of the fence, actual play doesn't determine that issue in the least. Only a potting test would come close. So you want to compare CTE to GB, but the GB user doesn't have to use GB, he can use any old method he chooses to use. Then you ask whats wrong with english in GB. I don't know, You asked it out of the blue, why don't you tell us?

Then you ask if you have to put the ghost ball where I say. Are you kidding me? Do you even know what a ghost ball is? Why on earth would you even ask something like that?

I'm not being nitpicky in the least. Words mean things. If you want to use ghost ball, go right ahead. I could care less. But don't sit there and swear by ghost ball when you are using something else. Just because you can't describe how you aim, does not mean that you get to lump what ever method you use into ghost ball aiming. Ghost ball aiming has parameters to it, just like every other method does.

Quit trying to make me look like I'm nitpicky when the whole problem is just that you don't know what ghost ball really is and want to lump a bunch of other ways to aim into ghost ball. You say you wouldn't require someone to aim at the center of the ghost ball. Well, then they aren't using ghost ball. Plain and simple. Just like Stan now had to come out with the term "real CTE" to differentiate between what CTE really is and how to use it from those that come up with their own way of using it. The difference is, real CTE works. The other ways are not nearly as reliable. Ghost ball means aiming at the center of the ghost ball. Not a very reliable way to aim. Many want to claim they use ghost ball, when they aren't. Their way may be very reliable, but they aren't using ghost ball.

If you want to claim the validity of a system, then at least actually use that system in your tests and not something else and then claim your system works or doesn't work.

As far as your "fear factor" statement, that is just ludicrous at best. Cheap shot on your part to try and make points when you have nothing else to stand on. I fear no one on the table. There are thousands of people that can beat me. No new news there. Also, I have taken every shotmaking test ever put on this forum, and done well on all of them. Don't see any of your scores on any of them. Is that a fear factor on your part??

Neil,
Regardless of your incessant whining about semantics of what is what is not the Ghost Ball and what you think I do and dont understand. I do know what ghost ball is I and probably everyone uses it to a degree how we place it, whether it be on top of contact point, whether we make a sideways allowance for the use of English shouldnt matter one iota. I am proposing competition between the two camps....thats it.

Perhaps a chance to get together have a match, some cordial conduct, maybe some explanation of what CTE. Make some friends and create some activity. Either you think its a good idea or not.....thats it.

What I proposed is some gentlemanly competition between the two camps and you refuse to let that be so I tell you what.......from all of your comments....and my question of ..What do you guys think? I think I have my answer. I think you want to argue about BS rather that get together and play some pool. I have a heck of a lot better things to do than listen to incessant nitpicking. There are thousands of people who can beat me as well but I havent got the time to argue about the shape of a stop sign when it says stop. Youre telling me this is a really bad idea and Im agreeing.

I dont have to understand the centrifugal motion to drive a car around the block but thats just me.

The way I see things is there are two camps.....call them what you want....is it that no one wants to play Neil? was it was a really bad idea or is it you want to run it? Hey thats fine, its yours run with it. I guess you wont allow me to play because I use English, make allowances, shoot my cue ball at a Ghost Ball laying on top of a contact point. This is some really crazy mess you have going here but its all good. I bow to your obvious all seeing, all knowing aiminosity. You can run it as a shot making contest as well, its yours.

Good Ghost Ball players adapt, Most start out by using the method you state and grow their game until they play with English, make allowances etc. and they dont use Center Ball all of the time.so if we have to put up APA 3's to play a no spot match. Its not worth it.

Its simple you are in one camp or the other. You either want to play or not. If the Cters win they are the Kings of the Continent,,,if not they can rechallenge another time. I saw this as a positive out of a situation that seem to have a lot of negative in it. I was wrong ok....I'll find something else to do with my time. Start you another thread and I will stay out of it. No problem. Good luck finding pure ghost ballers who see nothing but the white of the ghost ball. We dont want no contact folks around here. Ones that shoot to the middle of the ball and dont make allowances. Peace out.