Could you beat SVB?

[(((Satori)))]

Suppose you had a robot that performed flawlessly. It did exactly what you entered. Your job would be simply to enter the exact 1mm spot on the cue ball to hit, the speed at which to hit it, and the line of aim. Could you beat SVB or any other pro this way?

I say no because to enter those items would require conscious thought and the conscious mind simply is not powerful enough to compute those three things consistantly. This is a big part of what I see wrong with instruction teaching 1mm accuracy, minute adjustments to your aim once you're down on the ball, etc. High level pool is not played that way imo.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Those conscious thoughts are only negative because it effects our stroke, and doesn't allow us to get into "the zone."

It would not effect the robot's stroke.

I would still bet against the majority here (including myself), because while having a perfect stroke, SVB's other skills would trump everything else.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Those conscious thoughts are only negative because it effects our stroke, and doesn't allow us to get into "the zone."

It would not effect the robot's stroke.

I would still bet against the majority here (including myself), because while having a perfect stroke, SVB's other skills would trump everything else.

I think that's incorrect my friend. The reason the conscious thoughts hinder you is because it is impossible to consciously compute the speed and cueing and aim as consistantly as the subconscious can.

I'll ask another way. Would Shane make fewer errors in a race to 100 playing regularly or consciously pinpointing where to cue, where to aim on the ob, and the speed needed?

To input each separately I still don't think he would be as good as he plays regularly much less trying to consciously execute all three at once like you described.

 

[Inaction]

I once read a post regarding flooding of the Mississippi river in the 90's. It was in the Minneapolis area. The person wondered why the river isn't dammed up in northern MN close to where it begins and is not very wide.

Now to Shane; I have already beat him, similar to the above story, I got him when it was much easier to do in 1991. He didn't win a single game.

If he wants to even the score, I will gladly play a race to 10 in 8 Ball for $5, maybe even $10 if I get the break and 7 games at JJ's Billiards.

 

[Straightpool_99]

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[(((Satori)))]

I know I coudn't. The reason why is that I am crap at Virtual Pool, a game in which you have total precision and unlimited cue power. You have no feel however, and that is what kills my straight pool runs in that game. Sure, if the balls were all open you would pocket balls as well as- or better than SVB, but once you have to do something delicate with spin etc, he would outclass you.

I think the same way. How do you think virtual pool Shane would fair against real Shane in a race to 100? And I'm not even sure you have to be as precise on virtual pool as what is required in real life. Does virtual pool really calculate precisely the effects of throw and deflection etc. or does it just come pretty darn close?

 

[voiceofreason]

Having a robot make the shot is only part of it surely?

Knowing exactly where to hit the white (for the amount of side) and at what speed to get the white to do exactly what you want, is another part of the skill too.

 

[SakuJack]

Having a robot make the shot is only part of it surely?

Knowing exactly where to hit the white (for the amount of side) and at what speed to get the white to do exactly what you want, is another part of the skill too.

And more than that, it's quantifying all of these things. When you're down on a shot you know where you want to hit the cue ball, where you want to hit the object ball, at what speed you want to hit it, etc... you know all of these things, but realistically so much of it is down to feel, if it came to you having to input the info into a robot/computer, you have almost no chance.

 

[Matt]

Suppose you had a robot that performed flawlessly. It did exactly what you entered. Your job would be simply to enter the exact 1mm spot on the cue ball to hit, the speed at which to hit it, and the line of aim. Could you beat SVB or any other pro this way?

I say no because to enter those items would require conscious thought and the conscious mind simply is not powerful enough to compute those three things consistantly. This is a big part of what I see wrong with instruction teaching 1mm accuracy, minute adjustments to your aim once you're down on the ball, etc. High level pool is not played that way imo.

I think I could beat him if he had to play the same way.

 

[KRJ]

Nope ......

 

[lastdimetaker]

Nope 2 reasons, one Shane is my robots hero. Two I don't know how I do what I do for the most part. If I could program the robot with imagery then yes . but that's assuming the balls don't have to obey the laws of physics anymore.I like your question though.I could not articulate the simplest of shots to the robot.but I bet you shane can't beat me if he programmed the robot.

 

[Neil]

Suppose you had a robot that performed flawlessly. It did exactly what you entered. Your job would be simply to enter the exact 1mm spot on the cue ball to hit, the speed at which to hit it, and the line of aim. Could you beat SVB or any other pro this way?

I say no because to enter those items would require conscious thought and the conscious mind simply is not powerful enough to compute those three things consistantly. This is a big part of what I see wrong with instruction teaching 1mm accuracy, minute adjustments to your aim once you're down on the ball, etc. High level pool is not played that way imo.

You have totally missed the point of 1mm accuracy. If you don't have that accuracy, your subconscious never gets programmed to do what you want to do. Extreme example- you want to draw the cb. But you are so inaccurate in your hitting the cb that sometimes it draws, sometimes it stops, and sometimes it actually follows. Your subc. will never get programmed to perform like you want it to. Your brain cannot make minute adjustments if it doesn't first have a reference to go off of.

You are also assuming that to play with accuracy requires conscious thought at all levels. It doesn't. What it does require, is training. That is why drills are so important. To train your subconscious on what does what, so in the heat of battle, you don't have to consciously think about it, you KNOW what to do.

There are two types of drills. One where you set up the same shot over and over and observe exactly what happens so you can duplicate the results. And the other type where you just play for endless hours day after day and eventually accomplish the same goal.

After proper training, you can just look at the balls and instantly, subconsciously and consciously see the tangent line and how far off it you want to go. Your subconscious can immediately tell you "one tip per diamond of change, use 1.5 tips on this shot".

Why you are equating accuracy with just conscious thought, I don't understand.??? Accuracy uses conscious thought, and subconscious thought. Ever looked at the cb at some point when shooting? Guess what, you just used conscious thought. Same as you did looking at the ob. That conscious thought is what feeds your subconscious.

 

[(((Satori)))]

You have totally missed the point of 1mm accuracy. If you don't have that accuracy, your subconscious never gets programmed to do what you want to do. Extreme example- you want to draw the cb. But you are so inaccurate in your hitting the cb that sometimes it draws, sometimes it stops, and sometimes it actually follows. Your subc. will never get programmed to perform like you want it to. Your brain cannot make minute adjustments if it doesn't first have a reference to go off of.
I get that and I agree that you need good fundamentals so that you have a consistent stroke but it is the consciously locating a 1mm point and trying to hit it that I dont feel is the best way to learn because if you do this while trying to learn I think you are going to get very frustrated from lack of success no matter who you are
You are also assuming that to play with accuracy requires conscious thought at all levels. It doesn't.No I'm not. In fact the opposite is true. What it does require, is training.Yup That is why drills are so important. To train your subconscious on what does what, so in the heat of battle, you don't have to consciously think about it, you KNOW what to do. I agree, but I feel the best way is to set a picture in your mind and then execute, if you wind up short or whatever then you use a little more of this or that but this is different than trying for 1mm accuracy which imo is not only impossible to calculate but also impossible to hit consistently. With my way I think you start to see success quicker and before you know it you are automatically just cueing where need be without much of any thought at all.

One important factor though is that you need to progress at your level. This means if you are a C player you don't need to be trying for perfect shape immediately. Instead pick an area that you can land in 40% of the time and practice that until you can consistently land in the area 80% of the time and then tighten the are so your results are 40% again and repeat until perfect. Not just one shot but a variety.

There are two types of drills. One where you set up the same shot over and over and observe exactly what happens so you can duplicate the results. And the other type where you just play for endless hours day after day and eventually accomplish the same goal. I like both but in the beginning I think more of the first is necccesary

After proper training, you can just look at the balls and instantly, subconsciously and consciously see the tangent line and how far off it you want to go. Your subconscious can immediately tell you "one tip per diamond of change, use 1.5 tips on this shot".
I just dont think striving for 1mm accuracy is proper training. It is too chalenging for even the best imo
Why you are equating accuracy with just conscious thought, I don't understand.??? Accuracy uses conscious thought, and subconscious thought. Ever looked at the cb at some point when shooting? Guess what, you just used conscious thought. Same as you did looking at the ob. That conscious thought is what feeds your subconscious.This kind of conscious thought is much different than calculating an exact point and trying to hit it

I answered individually in blue.

 

[bdorman]

I could not beat any pro if I had to calculate the information; I simply don't have the experience to know exactly how hard/what angle, etc. to hit the shot to break up a cluster or achieve another objective.

I certainly couldn't do it with a 30-second shot clock!

But if we hook your robot up to an artifical intelligence computer, it could easily beat SVB, assuming your robot is able to do exactly what the computer tells it to do. There just aren't that many variables. A computer program could calculate them -- and re-check them 20 times -- in less time than it takes SVB's "subconscious" to do it.

 

[Baby Huey]

SVB is one of the best pool players ever and currently, I think, the best 10 ball player in the game. Having said that, he is beatable and you don't have to be a superstar to do so. Case in point, I knocked him our of the eight ball division in Reno in 2013 and though I am a pretty decent player, I am certainly not in his class. So a shortstop can beat him and it happens to all world champs.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I think that's incorrect my friend. The reason the conscious thoughts hinder you is because it is impossible to consciously compute the speed and cueing and aim as consistantly as the subconscious can.

I'll ask another way. Would Shane make fewer errors in a race to 100 playing regularly or consciously pinpointing where to cue, where to aim on the ob, and the speed needed?

To input each separately I still don't think he would be as good as he plays regularly much less trying to consciously execute all three at once like you described.

Conscious thoughts, be it aiming, speed, or where the tip makes contact on the CB can all have a negative impact in match play. However, it would have no negative effect in this case, because the robot plays perfectly provided the user inputs the correct directions. To think otherwise is like saying your Hot Pocket didn't cook your food correctly because you had to think about which buttons to press on your microwave.

A better question would be could anyone beat the robot if SVB (or any top tier pro) were behind the controls. I would think not as the knowledge is the same, but the execution is always perfect.

I don't know if you've ever seen or played the PC game Virtual Pool 4, but I play it occasionally. I'm a much better play in that game than I am in real life. Even though I consciously line up the shot, move the mouse to the desired spot on the CB, and judge the speed of the hit when pulling back the mouse and moving it forward. That's because despite doing all those things consciously, as long as they are done correctly, the results are perfect as the "stroke" in the game is always perfect.

 

[djkx1]

I know I would not have a chance in the long run.
Its all about shot selection and pattern play. I often hit the exact shot that I want with the desired spin and speed and still shaft myself regularly because of poor choices. I think that's the one of the biggest reasons most people don't play anywhere near his speed.

 

[nahog99]

Answering for myself and many others; No, and for many reasons. First off, I love your point about the subconscious controlling things. The conscious brain is what you use to learn, the subconscious is what executes. The conscious brain says, "ok i overcut that" or "ok i hit that a little too hard" your subconscious then makes the adjustments.

Back to your question. Even if i could translate perfectly what i want the cue ball to do via number input into a machine, I'd still lose based on ball selection alone. I would also still make the mistakes of hitting the ball too hard, over cutting, under cutting etc. Your question basically boils down to "if you had an absolutely perfect stroke could you beat SVB. No of course not. People would still mis-aim, hit the ball too hard or too soft, take the wrong shot, scratch the 8 in, etc etc. There are also shots, especially in 1-pocket, that i've never even THOUGHT of. How am i going to execute that even with a perfect stroke?