some people claim you get better by playing better players

L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i have heard both sides of the argument.

1. you get better by facing stronger players.

2. you cant learn much sitting in the chair watching them run out.

i decided to see for my self today if it is true or not so i played in the memphis open 9 ball tourny today.

1st thing i want to say is that i have played in a few non handicapped local tournys...... played in the napa nationals.... played in the apa nationals. none of them compare to the level of players that were in this tourny.

i am only an apa 5 and even though a friend said ...and i quote .." you aint got a snow balls chance in hell " of winning this thing. i decided to give it a try..

how did i do ? went 2 and out losing both matches 7-2.

did i learn anything in my 2 matches ? yea..... don't miss . :grin-square:

on a serious note i learned 2 things that stand out between me and my opponents.

1. take more time in lining up shots. it seems that i rush shots and rattle pockets where they are a little more deliberate and focused on the same type of shot .

2.cue ball control....too many times when i shot i got out of position by a few inches. they very seldom got out of position.

one thing they both complimented me on was my kicking ability. when they played safes i usually made a good hit.

at 60 years old i know my better days are over but if i focus on things i picked up today i think i can get a lil better.

i did talk to robb saez and i will be taking a few lessons from him.

i also got to meet johnny archer out side and we shook hands and exchanged hellos.

bottom line is i think you can get better playing stronger players if you pay attention to what they do and apply it to your practice. i know today pointed out my weaknesses and it gave me the desire to improve. there were several racks that i should have won if i had not made a mistake in cue ball control.

guys like i faced will run out in a heart beat after you run 6 balls and rattle the 7th. :(
 
I am of the opinion that when you play great players, it's like grease, it rubs off on you. Also, you will often times play 'to your competition'. So, if you are playing someone way better than you, you may just play over your head a bit. And, there's nothing wrong with that. I know in the local leagues, I've often had players say they play the best pool they ever played when playing me. Sorta sucks when a player you would crush in a match on any given day steals your lunch, but, I've almost come to expect it. And, I know I've done the same to players who are far better than I. No way would I taunt them into a big money game, but on that day when all the stars aligned and peace guides the planets, I won. :D

As to "watching while they run out", yes, that will happen. However, you WILL get to the table, especially if you don't play well enough to really peak their interest, they'll generally play down some. And, there is no rule that says you can't stay to watch the entire match. And you should. In my opinion, that is one of the best ways to pick up some smoothness in your stroke. It's almost like it programs your brain to play with the pace they do (and that's a good thing), and you just play smoother.

Well, that's my $.02 on it anyway. Glad to hear you had fun!
 
lorider said:
i have heard both sides of the argument.

1. you get better by facing stronger players.

2. you cant learn much sitting in the chair watching them run out.

i decided to see for my self today if it is true or not so i played in the memphis open 9 ball tourny today.

1st thing i want to say is that i have played in a few non handicapped local tournys...... played in the napa nationals.... played in the apa nationals. none of them compare to the level of players that were in this tourny.

i am only an apa 5 and even though a friend said ...and i quote .." you aint got a snow balls chance in hell " of winning this thing. i decided to give it a try..

how did i do ? went 2 and out losing both matches 7-2.

did i learn anything in my 2 matches ? yea..... don't miss . :grin-square:

on a serious note i learned 2 things that stand out between me and my opponents.

1. take more time in lining up shots. it seems that i rush shots and rattle pockets where they are a little more deliberate and focused on the same type of shot .

2.cue ball control....too many times when i shot i got out of position by a few inches. they very seldom got out of position.

one thing they both complimented me on was my kicking ability. when they played safes i usually made a good hit.

at 60 years old i know my better days are over but if i focus on things i picked up today i think i can get a lil better.

i did talk to robb saez and i will be taking a few lessons from him.

i also got to meet johnny archer out side and we shook hands and exchanged hellos.

bottom line is i think you can get better playing stronger players if you pay attention to what they do and apply it to your practice. i know today pointed out my weaknesses and it gave me the desire to improve. there were several racks that i should have won if i had not made a mistake in cue ball control.

guys like i faced will run out in a heart beat after you run 6 balls and rattle the 7th. :(
Click to expand...

Very good post.
Stepping up in class is the way to go IMO. 7-2 becomes 7-4 etc. You get the idea.
I try and play better players for a little $ nothing big - short sets 8 ball
And in the past year no wins started out loosing 5-0 5-1 now going hill hill I am happy with the progress.
Remember it's progress not perfection
MCP.
 
BugHunter said:
I am of the opinion that when you play great players, it's like grease, it rubs off on you. Also, you will often times play 'to your competition'. So, if you are playing someone way better than you, you may just play over your head a bit. And, there's nothing wrong with that. I know in the local leagues, I've often had players say they play the best pool they ever played when playing me. Sorta sucks when a player you would crush in a match on any given day steals your lunch, but, I've almost come to expect it. And, I know I've done the same to players who are far better than I. No way would I taunt them into a big money game, but on that day when all the stars aligned and peace guides the planets, I won. :D

As to "watching while they run out", yes, that will happen. However, you WILL get to the table, especially if you don't play well enough to really peak their interest, they'll generally play down some. And, there is no rule that says you can't stay to watch the entire match. And you should. In my opinion, that is one of the best ways to pick up some smoothness in your stroke. It's almost like it programs your brain to play with the pace they do (and that's a good thing), and you just play smoother.

Well, that's my $.02 on it anyway. Glad to hear you had fun!
Click to expand...

my post was long enough so i did not mention my other major weakness. starting off slow.

i do that constantly in league. in my 1st match today i lost 3 racks die to not making shots i am capable of.

i cant tell you how many times in league i have been down 3-0 and come back and win 4-3. the same in apa 9 ball . last week i was down against a 6 22-8 and come back and won 38-28. i have done that several times.

as far as playing up to your opponents... yes i seem to lose more to 5's and below than i do to 6's and higher.

yea...although i hate losing ...any time i play pool i enjoy it.:thumbup:
 
one other thing.... our apa top gun is being held this weekend. i usually do pretty good in it and qualify for regionals. i chose to play in this tourny instead.

there will be 2 more top gun tournys before regionals are held.:grin:
 
If you are a D and still cant make 2 balls in a row, Playing an 'A' will do you NO GOOD. You need to shoot and you wont so how can you learn to make a ball? Now a C playing a B, or a B playing an A, yes this will work for you.
 
Nostroke said:
If you are a D and still cant make 2 balls in a row, Playing an 'A' will do you NO GOOD. You need to shoot and you wont so how can you learn to make a ball? Now a C playing a B, or a B playing an A, yes this will work for you.
Click to expand...

i have to agree with you . i cant see an apa 3 learning any thing by playing in one of these tournys until they get some proper fundamentals down. well they probably could get pretty good at racking.lol.

for me its the little things .

coming off the bottom rail after pocketing the 5 trying to get on the 6 against the top rail only to have the cue ball stop behind the 8 just 3 inches short of having a good shot on the 6. i kick and make contact...noting falls and my opponent runs out. if i had shot just a lil harder i could have had a run out.

my opponent breaks and runs down to the 7 ...which is in a cluster with the 8 and 9. he plays safe locking the cue ball behind the 9 and sends the 8 across table and the 7 up table.

i kick at the 7 intending to pocket it in the top left corner...it rattles the pocket and he runs out. just hitting the 7 a lil softer it would have fell instead of rattling and an easy run out for me. .

several racks i should have won but lost due to just being off a lil bit. not saying i should have won either match but it could have been a lot closer if not for a few mistakes on my part.

most times in league if you make a mistake you will get back to the table......not against guys at this level though.
 
I agree with what nostroke said, if you're a novice player and you're playing someone who is years ahead of you - you probably won't play better.

Though, if you have been playing for a while and you're maybe an intermediate or advanced novice and you play someone stronger, your game tightens up more and you slow down some. Same thing happens for people who gamble too, I know some players who play careless when they play for fun but when they play for money, their games tighten up.
 
lorider said:
my post was long enough so i did not mention my other major weakness. starting off slow.

i do that constantly in league. in my 1st match today i lost 3 racks die to not making shots i am capable of.

i cant tell you how many times in league i have been down 3-0 and come back and win 4-3. the same in apa 9 ball . last week i was down against a 6 22-8 and come back and won 38-28. i have done that several times.

as far as playing up to your opponents... yes i seem to lose more to 5's and below than i do to 6's and higher.

yea...although i hate losing ...any time i play pool i enjoy it.:thumbup:
Click to expand...

I'd say you need to work on a solid pre-shot routine. If you do the checklist, your PSR will get you going from the git. :cool:

Best,
Mike
 
My theory is that most of the benefit is seeing the patterns a better player uses. I've watched many hundreds of hours of pro pool and have indeed learned much about patterns from doing that. So it's unclear playing league once a week against better players is going to do much more.

With that said, I switched to APA masters 7 months ago and have been playing against "better" players ever since.
 
Another advantage to playing better players is asking them for a little help. They shot just like you do at one time. You can ask them if there's something you're doing physically or mentally that may pick up your game.

If somebody asks me for advice I always go out of my way help them. I got help when I was coming up from top players. Some may not give it, but most will.

Best,
Mike
 
lorider said:
i have heard both sides of the argument.

1. you get better by facing stronger players.

2. you cant learn much sitting in the chair watching them run out.

i decided to see for my self today if it is true or not so i played in the memphis open 9 ball tourny today.

1st thing i want to say is that i have played in a few non handicapped local tournys...... played in the napa nationals.... played in the apa nationals. none of them compare to the level of players that were in this tourny.

i am only an apa 5 and even though a friend said ...and i quote .." you aint got a snow balls chance in hell " of winning this thing. i decided to give it a try..

how did i do ? went 2 and out losing both matches 7-2.

did i learn anything in my 2 matches ? yea..... don't miss . :grin-square:

on a serious note i learned 2 things that stand out between me and my opponents.

1. take more time in lining up shots. it seems that i rush shots and rattle pockets where they are a little more deliberate and focused on the same type of shot .

2.cue ball control....too many times when i shot i got out of position by a few inches. they very seldom got out of position.

one thing they both complimented me on was my kicking ability. when they played safes i usually made a good hit.

at 60 years old i know my better days are over but if i focus on things i picked up today i think i can get a lil better.

i did talk to robb saez and i will be taking a few lessons from him.

i also got to meet johnny archer out side and we shook hands and exchanged hellos.

bottom line is i think you can get better playing stronger players if you pay attention to what they do and apply it to your practice. i know today pointed out my weaknesses and it gave me the desire to improve. there were several racks that i should have won if i had not made a mistake in cue ball control.

guys like i faced will run out in a heart beat after you run 6 balls and rattle the 7th. :(
Click to expand...
You will not really see any difference with just one tournament, or taking notes on what other better players are doing. It is a long term experience that take's place regardless if you are even aware it is happening to you.

The story is always the same and I have heard it dozens of times. For me it was I played in a bowling alley. From the time I was like 15 I was the best player there as well in a short time about the best in my town.

There were some very good players I may struggle with but pretty much I had gone way beyond everybody else, no one around there could beat me.

Then I started going to a 24 hour room in Miami where DiLiberto and Mike Caralla hung. Marcel Camp was the houseman along with a host of road players coming and going and I never really went back to my old room much anymore.

It was "Total emmersion education" in pool. You learn through osmosis and don't even know it is happening. A year later and you go back to where you used to play and it is a joke. All the players you thought were so good actually stink, you can give them the 5 ball.

I do not think this kind of improvement can take place in a vacuum, no matter how much you practice or how many videos you watch. You have to get out and be exposed to it on a day to day basis.

One of the things you notice is that when you see and play top players it just rubs off. They make it look easy and your brain I guess says, "Hell I can do that" and you do. It is for the most part an unconscious occurrence, it just happens. In that room I am referring to in fact, even the suckers played good, the place was "Higher education" in pool for anyone that hung there even with no talent.
 
Nostroke said:
If you are a D and still cant make 2 balls in a row, Playing an 'A' will do you NO GOOD. You need to shoot and you wont so how can you learn to make a ball? Now a C playing a B, or a B playing an A, yes this will work for you.
Click to expand...

To be honest, you don't really have to play them, just have a constant exposure to that high level of play. Your brain will shift into a higher gear as you absorb what they do. Just the sense of how they pocket balls and move around the table and do everything with such ease will rub off.
 
Mikjary said:
Another advantage to playing better players is asking them for a little help. They shot just like you do at one time. You can ask them if there's something you're doing physically or mentally that may pick up your game.

If somebody asks me for advice I always go out of my way help them. I got help when I was coming up from top players. Some may not give it, but most will.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

i have done exactly that in league a few times. i make a mental note of something i saw them do ...such as make a hard shot and get excellent shape . i will ask them how they did that after the match was over. or as you said ...ask what they think i did wrong on a certain shot.

in a tourny like today i would not attemt to bother them...thinking they might not want to be bothered trying to stay in focus in a money tourny like this. i think it was around 4,000.00 or a lil more total payout between purse and calcutta.
 
When you play better players, you focus more, and is much stronger mentally as you have "nothing to lose." Better players also tend to brake better, leave easier shots, or better position when they miss.

When you play inferior players, you have much more to lose. If you lose a game, it would be more embarrassing thus the added pressure. Bad players also tend to leave tougher shots, tying balls up, etc.

To sum it up, no, you don't get better but simply playing better players. If you focus and learn from the way they play, then you will get better. To train the mental game, I believe it is best to play someone slightly above your level instead of someone who plays at a much higher speed than you do.
 
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights." Muhammad Ali

It's the same for pool, folks. You're not going to win, or get even close, by the experience of having your ass kicked (by a pro, or otherwise). There's no substitute for practice.

Shoot Safe.

John
 
This has helped my game more often than not. Playing better players
can be beneficial ... However ... "Aligning" yourself with better players
will prove to be even more beneficial to your game. When you remove
the adversarial aspect the pressure is less and learning is easier.
 
the chicken said:
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights." Muhammad Ali

It's the same for pool, folks. You're not going to win, or get even close, by the experience of having your ass kicked (by a pro, or otherwise). There's no substitute for practice.

Shoot Safe.

John
Click to expand...

i quoted you but i am gonna address what several other posters replied also.

to you i say ..yes there is no substitute for practice...... but you gotta know what you are practicing. i will say due to me practicing my break at home for the last 2 weeks getting ready for this tourny my break has improved a lot. no scratching....most of the time a ball or 2 falls...most of the time i have a shot at my object ball. a pretty good improvement over the way my break was sucking 2 weeks ago lol.

to the one that mentioned masters... 2 years ago when i was still a s/l 4 i played on a masters team. i had several opponents tell me they would hate to play me in a handicap race. :grin-square: as for master league...although you are playing better players , league environment is not conducive to improving at a high enough level fast enough...imo of course.

league ..to me is having fun with team mates.. you can improve due to league play.... i think i have. after today i have to agree with those on here that say ...league play can only take you so far. its hard to concentrate on improving when you worry about team mates play...keeping score... worrying whether joe blow is gonna show or not.etc. etc.

by no means am i saying simply playing in a high level tourny like this will improve your game but like one said..being around this environment will rub off on you.

although i lost both matches 7-2 i dont think i played that bad for my ability. heck a friend who is a 7/8 lost his 1st match 7-1 against an opponent that i dont think is any stronger than my 2nd opponent was. i have been told by more than one person i am one of the strongest 5's in town. heck i have been called a sand bagger in apa and under handicapped in napa lol. if you played against me on one of my bad days you would swear i was a d- though.:D

watching guys up close the last few days like archer....hatch...putnam...saez. was awe inspiring how they move the cue ball around. they were playing with the measles ball which gives you a whole better idea of how they move the ball around for position.

all i am saying is today lit a fire under my ass to improve.....too bad i am gettin over the hill in age though.
 
The thing for me is:

When you play better players you learn both what to do, and what not to do.

I've learned quite a bit of safety play just by watching 7s play safes, and watching 7s run the table after I play a bad one.

Hell, I've learned cue ball control, and some position play watching better guys shoot. I remember seeing them shoot certain shots that come up in matches all the time - and I watch how they get position all over the table.

For me, as a player, I'm able to advance more quickly when I have some competition because I want to become better than the guys who beat me.

Someone on the boards once said that there are two types of players, those who say "I'll never be as good as him," and those that say "I'll be better than him one day" and I am definitely the latter =P
 
I think it depends on the person. Some will become better playing better players, some not so much. If I'm playing a better player I try to make sure of at least one thing, that I can see the entire table when they're shooting. I'd like to be able to have a free dialouge with them but in a tournament that won't usually happen until the last game or two. Maybe it's just me, the fundamentals I can work on my own and from a lesson (formal or informal) every so often. Observation and trying to do what they do, that's when I seem to take the most significant steps in my skill level
 
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