Is no practice better than bad practice?

nobcitypool said:
It seems to me, if you were missing that badly, it had to be your vision. I take everything you say with a grain of salt however.

I would have set up a simple straight in shot to start to diagnose the problem. One diamond from pocket, one diamond between OB and CB. Shoot it. Did it go straight in center pocket? If so, move CB back 1/2 a diamond. Repeat until you miss. When you miss, start tweaking some things to see what takes you back to center pocket. Could be you came in and had unconsciously altered your head position. So you're aim is skewed. Perhaps you're rolling your wrists. If, as you say, you were missing all the shots by 1/2 a diamond, that is a lot. Should be easy with a few simple diagnostics to see where that is coming from.

Of course, you were the guy that was going to video yourself routinely hitting 5 bank shots in a row after starting with ball in hand, on a diamond 9 footer. How you can do this and then come in and be off 1/2 a diamond is puzzling.
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The straight in shots are excellent at finding what a person is doing wrong. It helps if you have a measles cue ball at hand, too. If I see someone shooting badly with a measles ball I can usually tell what flaws they have after about 5 mins watching them hit straight ins.

Set up a close straight in, OB centre table, CB 1ft away and shoot into a corner. Hit the shot firm. If the ball has any rotation, top, bottom or aide spin then you are doing something wrong. Likewise if the CB doesn't stop dead, but goes along a tangent line then you are also no doing something right. If its going off on a tangent, but has no side spin then its an aiming/ sighting issue. If it has side spin and/ or goes off on a tangent line then its a stroke fault or a mix.

But yeah, missing by half a diamond is beginner, and complete beginner standard at that if it was happening a lot. Are you sure you were shooting with the correct shooting hand? ;-)
 
Everything's so literal on here, isn't it? =P

I wasn't missing every shot by 1/2 diamond - was just exaggerating something that I consider to be a failure. Though, there were a few steep cut shots that I was missing by 1/2 a diamond, but most balls were hitting just before the pocket or rattling in the pocket.

To NobCity - I was very very cocky when first saying I could bank 5 balls in a row every time... etc, etc. and my game has matured a bit since then and I've been humbled many a time. Don't get me wrong, I can definitely bank 5 balls in a row but not consistently like John Brumback...yet ;) I remember Freddy saying something about South Side Chicago pool players being able to bank - and that's definitely me. I'm a good banker but nowhere near the level that old and cocky me thought I was.

I'll keep the straight line shot in the back of my mind in case I ever have to deal with this kind of practice again. I don't usually get aggravated but when things are wrong and I can't figure out what the problem is (at the very least) then it does bother me...
 
Tony_in_MD said:
My rule is to never end practice on a bad note.

No matter what you have to do finish the practice session with something positive.
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This is the same rule we follow in dog training. Always end a session on a positive note, even if it's just the dog sitting to get a treat (i.e. very simple).

You'd be amazed at how similar dog- and people-training are. IMHO, if teachers studied dog training, our kids would be light years ahead in basic education.
 
Zphix said:
Everything's so literal on here, isn't it? =P

I wasn't missing every shot by 1/2 diamond - was just exaggerating something that I consider to be a failure. Though, there were a few steep cut shots that I was missing by 1/2 a diamond, but most balls were hitting just before the pocket or rattling in the pocket.

To NobCity - I was very very cocky when first saying I could bank 5 balls in a row every time... etc, etc. and my game has matured a bit since then and I've been humbled many a time. Don't get me wrong, I can definitely bank 5 balls in a row but not consistently like John Brumback...yet ;) I remember Freddy saying something about South Side Chicago pool players being able to bank - and that's definitely me. I'm a good banker but nowhere near the level that old and cocky me thought I was.

I'll keep the straight line shot in the back of my mind in case I ever have to deal with this kind of practice again. I don't usually get aggravated but when things are wrong and I can't figure out what the problem is (at the very least) then it does bother me...
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I get the impression that you are trying to progress faster than your capabilities allow. Take a step back and concentrate on what matters, getting that ball to hit the other ball in a way that makes the intended ball go into that big hole on that little table. If your arm isn't aligned, if you didn't step in 100% accurately or if you got up before counting to 5 one thousand...it doesn't matter as long as the pot is made. You seem to take a very robotic take on how to play pool, that's fine, if you plan to play like a robot. Steve Davis was the best snooker player around for decades, and he was very robotic in how he played but he is the only one in snooker I can think of.

From your previous post you mentioned having a checklist. How do you check your arm is aligned? Only way to check is to take a look, and move your head. Don't be doing that. All you need to think about when you're down is, is my stick pointing where it needs to and is it going straight back and forward when I feather the cue ball. If the answer is no, stop, get up and try again. When I'm down I don't think, well I do but not about the shot at hand. Normally about what's for dinner or what's on tv later. Its amazing what your body can do when you're not thinking about what your body is doing ;-)
 
When you practice it's the time to work on stance , alignment , stroke and so on
If your playing for nothing it can still be considered practice however ,, you should be working on the finish product ,, what I mean is your PSR should already be established and tweaking it a little during practice games is ok but I don't make any major changes until I get back to practicing alone

Now if your playing serious games you need to be confident in what your doing if doubt is setting in you need to do something to change that or what you did , quit and go home I prefer not to do that the doubt will still be entrenched in your mind ,,
A lot of times for me changing sticks changes feel i carry at least 3 sticks with me ,,I once lost a set 7-1 walked outside got my other stick broke and ran the first 4 back door ran 2 more and won 7 -0 against the same player ,,
No as the disclaimer goes these results are not typical however if you can change the feel sometimes you just feel more comfortable if that doesn't work pack it up ,, and just chalk it up to a off day happens to the best of them

1
 
thats not bad practice what you described, its an off night. bad practice is banging balls around mindlessly, which im guilty of and it screws you over when in a match you need to make a shot and dog it. get whst im saying? fight through it and youll come out the other side better than before, you can't judge your game when you're in stroke, you judge it when you struggle. kinda feels cliche as im typing this bc I know it to be true. and as you read it you feel the same way.
 
Zphix said:
...I self-diagnose after missing a few shots because I know that something is wrong somewhere...
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If you miss a few shots in a row it sounds to me like everything is normal!

I agree with those who've said you weren't practicing. So, it wouldn't have particularly been "bad practice." I do think you could have stuck around and better learned how to deal with having an off night.

In any event, practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent. And, with that in mind, no practice would be better than bad practice all day every day.
 
Zphix said:
Alright guys - last night was probably the worst night I spent playing pool in my life.

I got to the poolhall, grabbed a table, and started to practice. Within the first 10 minutes I knew it was going to be bad. Something was off but I couldn't figure out what, every shot felt uncomfortable despite me taking my usual stance. Maybe it was my jeans, or shirt, or something but I really felt uncomfortable with every shot.

So, I did what I usually do. I focused on keeping my stroking arm in-line, and stepping into my shot, following through, and staying down after stroking... but it did nothing. I was missing balls by half a diamond and I wasn't sure what was going on.

Then, my buddy came in and wanted to play some one pocket and I decided to play. Was still shooting horribly and after 2 games I had to pack it in and call it quits. I was aggravated, irritated, and confused so I decided to go home and relax.

So - is no practice better than bad practice? Is it better to go home and take a break from pool in times/situations like this?

-Richard
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If you're practicing and feel you're doing everything right, but are just having a bad night, throw some balls on the table and start making easy shots. You should end your practice night making balls, even if they are easy shots. Just an opinion.
 
Pidge said:
I get the impression that you are trying to progress faster than your capabilities allow. Take a step back and concentrate on what matters, getting that ball to hit the other ball in a way that makes the intended ball go into that big hole on that little table. If your arm isn't aligned, if you didn't step in 100% accurately or if you got up before counting to 5 one thousand...it doesn't matter as long as the pot is made. You seem to take a very robotic take on how to play pool, that's fine, if you plan to play like a robot. Steve Davis was the best snooker player around for decades, and he was very robotic in how he played but he is the only one in snooker I can think of.

From your previous post you mentioned having a checklist. How do you check your arm is aligned? Only way to check is to take a look, and move your head. Don't be doing that. All you need to think about when you're down is, is my stick pointing where it needs to and is it going straight back and forward when I feather the cue ball. If the answer is no, stop, get up and try again. When I'm down I don't think, well I do but not about the shot at hand. Normally about what's for dinner or what's on tv later. Its amazing what your body can do when you're not thinking about what your body is doing ;-)
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The checklist is something that I developed after quickly reading through the Pleasures of Small Motions book and I guess you could say it's part of my shot routine. In checking my arm - it's muscle memory. A problem I was having was the I was dropping my shoulder which caused my whole arm to stroke crooked - and now I remember what it feels like when my shoulder is in it's proper place. No looking necessary just feeling.

Again, I step to the table, get down, "check" my shoulder then stroke. It's not as complicated or absurd as you guys are trying to make it seem. I'm not dedicating a whole lot of time to it - it's just a passing thought and a very very quick thought. Then when I'm down I just shoot.

Anyway - whatever was going on last night during practice/ fun match play didn't affect my league play tonight because I didn't change a thing (except my pants, boxers, shirt, etc.) and I was playing great.
 
I didn't read all the replies in this thread, but I know for me there are some days when my eyes just aren't there. For whatever reason, I can't see the angles and get my aim right no matter what I try. Those days are very uncommon, but I know enough now to know that when they happen to pack it in and call it a day. RandyG is completely right. Why practice possibly ingraining bad habits?
 
Pidge said:
I get the impression that you are trying to progress faster than your capabilities allow. Take a step back and concentrate on what matters, getting that ball to hit the other ball in a way that makes the intended ball go into that big hole on that little table. If your arm isn't aligned, if you didn't step in 100% accurately or if you got up before counting to 5 one thousand...it doesn't matter as long as the pot is made. You seem to take a very robotic take on how to play pool, that's fine, if you plan to play like a robot. Steve Davis was the best snooker player around for decades, and he was very robotic in how he played but he is the only one in snooker I can think of.

From your previous post you mentioned having a checklist. How do you check your arm is aligned? Only way to check is to take a look, and move your head. Don't be doing that. All you need to think about when you're down is, is my stick pointing where it needs to and is it going straight back and forward when I feather the cue ball. If the answer is no, stop, get up and try again. When I'm down I don't think, well I do but not about the shot at hand. Normally about what's for dinner or what's on tv later. Its amazing what your body can do when you're not thinking about what your body is doing ;-)
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Good advice here. I'll offer some more. I used to take golf lessons from a very good instructor. He emphasized one thing more than anything else. Be robotic and have swing thoughts when practicing. However, when you go to play, throw that completely aside, be target oriented and let your subconscious take over. When you're playing, do your thinking and check list while you're standing up. When you go down to shoot, let your subconscious take over completely.

Like many things in life, getting good at pool is a journey, not an event. It is clear you see yourself in a light that is brighter than reality would indicate. That's fine. Unfortunately, that has you with unrealistic expectations that your existing skill set won't satisfy too often. This seems to cause you frustration. That's understandable. I would recommend you be more patient, have more realistic expectations and enjoy the journey. You're young and apparently heading to, or already at, college. You have your entire life to enjoy pool. Even if you get very good, you're very likely to have a much happier and more successful life by focusing on your school and a career than pool. For the VAST majority, pool is a hobby and recreation. Hobbies and recreation should be fun. Start having fun again and quit letting your inflated pool ego cause you so much frustration. If you don't, you'll likely walk away from the game in the next year and cheat yourself out of a lifetime of enjoyment.
 
If not practice is better than bad practice ... Eh we All should quit playing pool. Coz we All practice poorly most of time if you look back on time.. And then sometimes we get insights and learn new ways to be consistent..
So in the end even bad practice is needed if you wanna be good..:wink:
 
Zphix said:
The checklist is something that I developed after quickly reading through the Pleasures of Small Motions book and I guess you could say it's part of my shot routine. In checking my arm - it's muscle memory. A problem I was having was the I was dropping my shoulder which caused my whole arm to stroke crooked - and now I remember what it feels like when my shoulder is in it's proper place. No looking necessary just feeling.

Again, I step to the table, get down, "check" my shoulder then stroke. It's not as complicated or absurd as you guys are trying to make it seem. I'm not dedicating a whole lot of time to it - it's just a passing thought and a very very quick thought. Then when I'm down I just shoot.

Anyway - whatever was going on last night during practice/ fun match play didn't affect my league play tonight because I didn't change a thing (except my pants, boxers, shirt, etc.) and I was playing great.
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Once you are in shooting position it is too late to be checking anything, whether that be your shoulder, elbow, or hand. What is important is how you get them into position. How you get into shooting position determines everything. Try looking at it as an organic whole rather than a set of components.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Once you are in shooting position it is too late to be checking anything, whether that be your shoulder, elbow, or hand. What is important is how you get them into position. How you get into shooting position determines everything. Try looking at it as an organic whole rather than a set of components.

Lou Figueroa
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That is solid gold advice right there.
 
nobcitypool said:
Good advice here. I'll offer some more. I used to take golf lessons from a very good instructor. He emphasized one thing more than anything else. Be robotic and have swing thoughts when practicing. However, when you go to play, throw that completely aside, be target oriented and let your subconscious take over. When you're playing, do your thinking and check list while you're standing up. When you go down to shoot, let your subconscious take over completely.

Like many things in life, getting good at pool is a journey, not an event. It is clear you see yourself in a light that is brighter than reality would indicate. That's fine. Unfortunately, that has you with unrealistic expectations that your existing skill set won't satisfy too often. This seems to cause you frustration. That's understandable. I would recommend you be more patient, have more realistic expectations and enjoy the journey. You're young and apparently heading to, or already at, college. You have your entire life to enjoy pool. Even if you get very good, you're very likely to have a much happier and more successful life by focusing on your school and a career than pool. For the VAST majority, pool is a hobby and recreation. Hobbies and recreation should be fun. Start having fun again and quit letting your inflated pool ego cause you so much frustration. If you don't, you'll likely walk away from the game in the next year and cheat yourself out of a lifetime of enjoyment.
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Good advice. Playing pool is a journey. Enjoy to view along the way. I have benn playing this game game for 45 yrs. a good part of it in Manila before coming to the land of promise. I gambled to them all from an austere lawyer to a high rolling pastor/priest. I have no misgivings from those life experiences that I went thru. Enjoy the game whether practicing or gambling and dont forget to smell the flowers along the way.
i was a little offline there just sharing my thoughts.
 
nobcitypool said:
Good advice here. I'll offer some more. I used to take golf lessons from a very good instructor. He emphasized one thing more than anything else. Be robotic and have swing thoughts when practicing. However, when you go to play, throw that completely aside, be target oriented and let your subconscious take over. When you're playing, do your thinking and check list while you're standing up. When you go down to shoot, let your subconscious take over completely.

Like many things in life, getting good at pool is a journey, not an event. It is clear you see yourself in a light that is brighter than reality would indicate. That's fine. Unfortunately, that has you with unrealistic expectations that your existing skill set won't satisfy too often. This seems to cause you frustration. That's understandable. I would recommend you be more patient, have more realistic expectations and enjoy the journey. You're young and apparently heading to, or already at, college. You have your entire life to enjoy pool. Even if you get very good, you're very likely to have a much happier and more successful life by focusing on your school and a career than pool. For the VAST majority, pool is a hobby and recreation. Hobbies and recreation should be fun. Start having fun again and quit letting your inflated pool ego cause you so much frustration!. If you don't, you'll likely walk away from the game in the next year and cheat yourself out of a lifetime of enjoyment.
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Good advice! I agree with Mark here. The OP hasn't learned the same "diagnostic" skills that you have. Tough to do on your own (as you well know). Some time spent with an SPF instructor would yield great benefits for this very young player.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
When I struggle pocketing balls I almost always go to long diagonal straight in shots. I check to see if I am consistently missing the same direction, if I am then I work on alignment. If my misses are all over then i am probably doing something wrong with my stroke. When I have nites that I just cant seem to make anything rather than walking away from the table I will do stroke and speed drills (thanks Scott), stuff that does not require me to pockets balls, I never knew how much speed drills could help your game\ until I was taught them.
 
Zphix said:
Alright guys - last night was probably the worst night I spent playing pool in my life.

I got to the poolhall, grabbed a table, and started to practice. Within the first 10 minutes I knew it was going to be bad. Something was off but I couldn't figure out what, every shot felt uncomfortable despite me taking my usual stance. Maybe it was my jeans, or shirt, or something but I really felt uncomfortable with every shot.

So, I did what I usually do. I focused on keeping my stroking arm in-line, and stepping into my shot, following through, and staying down after stroking... but it did nothing. I was missing balls by half a diamond and I wasn't sure what was going on.

Then, my buddy came in and wanted to play some one pocket and I decided to play. Was still shooting horribly and after 2 games I had to pack it in and call it quits. I was aggravated, irritated, and confused so I decided to go home and relax.

So - is no practice better than bad practice? Is it better to go home and take a break from pool in times/situations like this?

-Richard
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Usually human eyes are good with aim to about 1/2 a pocket width tolerance (on long shots), any more misses your stroke is responsible, the dynamic steps i call it. Slow your back swing.

IMO you should not practice shooting games, like 9 or 10 ball, unless you master all 4000 shots possibilities; only then your practice will be useful otherwise, you will be missing too much, and get frustrated, and probably gets you to write such a post.

Some people said subconscious (SC), this word does not apply to pool, SC is when you see a car heading your way you move immediately to save life, or when a fly comes to your eye, you close your eye; those SC moves are programmed in Humans and instinctive (you cannot forget SC you die). In Pool or any game our regular memory is the one responsible, and practice make perfect and itches such check lists in memory, if they were in SC we will never forget to follow through, or tighten grip or....

Best of luck
 
randyg said:
"So, I did what I usually do. I focused on keeping my stroking arm in-line, and stepping into my shot, following through, and staying down after stroking... but it did nothing. I was missing balls by half a diamond and I wasn't sure what was going on."


How can we expect to pocket balls when we are focusing on other things.

Any day of the week, no practice is better than bad practice.

randyg
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What Randy said.

It is sorta easy to learn new physical motions with structured repetitive motions. It's difficult to unlearn unwanted, failing physical motions, after they get deep seated.

Good Luck...
 
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