I like Lassiter's line about this: "I don't give lessons because I don't know what I'm doing."
From Willie Joseph Mosconi himself:
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
I like Lassiter's line about this: "I don't give lessons because I don't know what I'm doing."
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Back up your statement.
What leads you to believe he knew nothing of teaching nor phyisics other then it's not your way.
"Mosconi was a superior player..."
"knew nothing about teaching, nor physics of pool..."
Really? lol, tell you what, just a hypothetical of course: if given the choice, everyone who would rather take a lesson from Willie, line up on the right. Anyone who would prefer a lesson from Scott instead, line up on the left.
Lou Figueroa
campin' out
on the right
You could be in the wrong line . A great player he was.... A teacher.... Who knows
Do you know any of his pupils?
Lou...I'm actually surprised to see you say something stupid like what's below. Mosconi didn't give lessons, and was famous for not giving back to the game, along with being a prima donna when performing. He didn't even write the books associated with him (I thought that was common knowledge). I certainly am not taking anything away from his talent at the table...which is simply undeniable.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
No, Scott, the stupid part was you saying the man was a merely a "superior" player who knew nothing about teaching or the physics of the game.
I'm fully aware aware Mosconi did not deign to give lessons to mere mortals. But that doesn't mean anyone -- and I mean anyone remotely interested in the game -- would not give their eye teeth to sit at his feet and hear what he had to say about how to play pool.
Lou Figueroa
Banks
Banned
Then McDonald's must have superior food to Ruth Chris because they have more customers?
great picture!
Joey,
At a guess this would be fairly early in their tours or TV shows. Fats knew exactly how to yank Willie's strings and this moment captures that perfectly. Fats back on his heels looking away playing the crowd, Willie looking pugnacious and ready to give Fats a less than friendly tap!
Fats got Willie so hot with the no gamble claim that Willie threw his wallet on the table once and invited Fats to play for a couple thousand. Great TV but hell on Willie's blood pressure!
After they traveled awhile Willie came to realize it was a show and Fats was putting money in his pocket. They became friendly, some say friends. That would be the real Odd Couple!
Hu
JoeyA
Joey,
At a guess this would be fairly early in their tours or TV shows. Fats knew exactly how to yank Willie's strings and this moment captures that perfectly. Fats back on his heels looking away playing the crowd, Willie looking pugnacious and ready to give Fats a less than friendly tap!
Fats got Willie so hot with the no gamble claim that Willie threw his wallet on the table once and invited Fats to play for a couple thousand. Great TV but hell on Willie's blood pressure!
After they traveled awhile Willie came to realize it was a show and Fats was putting money in his pocket. They became friendly, some say friends. That would be the real Odd Couple!
Hu
1. Mosconi didn't give lessons...he was a player, not a teacher.
2. Mosconi suggested that everyone should play with a 6-8 inch bridge, and follow through 4-6 inches (almost nobody, pro or otherwise, plays with that short of a bridge). Typical bridge length is 10-15 inches. Some pro players followthrough is typically more or less than that.
3. Mosconi didn't understand how short the "dwell time" between the tip and CB was, and therefore believed that more followthrough equated to more "stuff" (draw, spin, power, etc). Those things weren't measured until after Mosconi's death (see: Jacksonville Project).
Need more?
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
2. Mosconi suggested that everyone should play with a 6-8 inch bridge, and follow through 4-6 inches (almost nobody, pro or otherwise, plays with that short of a bridge). Typical bridge length is 10-15 inches. Some pro players followthrough is typically more or less than that.
3. Mosconi didn't understand how short the "dwell time" between the tip and CB was, and therefore believed that more followthrough equated to more "stuff" (draw, spin, power, etc). Those things weren't measured until after Mosconi's death (see: Jacksonville Project).
Need more?
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
If it was a friendship, it was built entirely on the both of them making a payday. :grin::grin::grin:
Good to see you around. Now you just have to belly up to Facebook. :grin-devilish::grin-devilish::grin-devilish:
JoeyA
Lou...The stupid part is comparing apples to oranges (few people argue that there's a significant difference between professional players and professional instructors...fewer still make that grade). I agree that nobody who loved pool wouldn't relish an opportunity to "sit at his feet and hear what he had to say about how to play pool".
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott,
I wasn't around Willie enough to know if he knew anything about teaching pool or not. I also don't know just how bad dropping your elbow is or if having the grip hand directly below the elbow is absolutely necessary to play championship pool, either.
"Physics of pool?" IDK but he sure knew how to make that cue ball do magical things.
I also think Willie was from the generation of players who didn't want to teach anyone anything about pool. Not-teaching was considered a survival skill for the most skilled of players.
I guess even bad press is better than no press. :wink:
Sorry we missed you when you passed through town recently.
I know you can teach pool but it's kind of like when you ask someone, "Do you know how to fish?" There are fisherman and then there are FISHERMAN. )That might not make sense to you unless you are a FISHERMAN. )
I don't doubt that you can teach pool but Willie might have been able to teach you a thing or two.
Just sayin',
JoeyA
Joey...I don't disagree with one thing that you said...including the "fisherman" analogy. You have sought out instruction from many well-known people...some instructors and some players. Dropping your elbow is just a choice, and is neither right or wrong. We discourage it for most students, because it makes the timing of the stroke so much more complex (and it doesn't offer any advantage to the outcome). But we never insist that someone stop doing it. If there's truly one thing I believe in, it's there's ALWAYS more than one way to do something. True, he did magic with the cueball...not unlike Efren (IMO Efren is better because he plays all games).
Caras taught, Jimmy Moore taught...they were from the same era (although I agree with your take on the "times"). As far as the fisherman...some guys are real experts at teaching how to get the fly "out there"...others are more expert at finding "where" to fish. Some can do both.
I had a great time at Jamie's place last week, and I look forward to going back there the next time I'm in the area (one of my wife's doctors is in Kenner). Hope to see you the next time I'm in Louisiana! :thumbup:
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Caras taught, Jimmy Moore taught...they were from the same era (although I agree with your take on the "times"). As far as the fisherman...some guys are real experts at teaching how to get the fly "out there"...others are more expert at finding "where" to fish. Some can do both.
I had a great time at Jamie's place last week, and I look forward to going back there the next time I'm in the area (one of my wife's doctors is in Kenner). Hope to see you the next time I'm in Louisiana! :thumbup:
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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I need to re-read the book but in the book the "The Hustler and the Champ" by R.A. Dyer I do not believe that Willie and Fats were ever described as being friendly or anywhere close to friends. I tend to think that Mr. Dyer has done about the most comprehensive research into the lives of these two men that anyone has ever done based on the book and his notes and subsequent essays about it.
Perhaps you're right but the researched narrative indicates otherwise. Willie was a temperamental man who didn't tolerate fools and "story" tellers. He genuinely hated Fats and all that Fats represented.
Except, you once said, and I paraphrase, 'If Willie Mosconi himself woke up from the dead and declared that CTE was a great way to aim I would tell him to go back to sleep.'
So, is it fair to say you would only like to have a lesson from Willie if he taught things you already agree with?
oh well . . .
John I'm real impressed that you read a book. Got to ask if you made it all the way through, you don't seem like that kind of a guy! Just looking at all of the pictures doesn't count.
I have read and studied dozens of books concerning how to do many things. Many by multi-time world champions and people in various halls of fame. I have yet to find one source that had 100% of the information and was 100% accurate. People who want a narrow perception of the world can accept one source as having all information. They remain ignorant of quite a lot though.
You can do the research if you really care, I think it was someone in Willie's family, probably his wife, that said they became friendly. Could have been Cosell, it isn't the most important thing I remember. It has been said they became friends, who knows? Bush the first and clinton became friends once they were both out of office despite clinton representing pretty much everything Bush disliked both as a person and politician. When you are in a very small and elite group you either become friends or quite bitter enemies when you are thrown into contact over and over.
Some friends I have on AZB and later in person were met originally on opposite sides in a thread. We all had the ability to think and grow. Of course there is at least one or two that will remain a dipshit for life, some people are born and raised that way, can't be helped!
Hu
John I'm real impressed that you read a book. Got to ask if you made it all the way through, you don't seem like that kind of a guy! Just looking at all of the pictures doesn't count.
I have read and studied dozens of books concerning how to do many things. Many by multi-time world champions and people in various halls of fame. I have yet to find one source that had 100% of the information and was 100% accurate. People who want a narrow perception of the world can accept one source as having all information. They remain ignorant of quite a lot though.
You can do the research if you really care, I think it was someone in Willie's family, probably his wife, that said they became friendly. Could have been Cosell, it isn't the most important thing I remember. It has been said they became friends, who knows? Bush the first and clinton became friends once they were both out of office despite clinton representing pretty much everything Bush disliked both as a person and politician. When you are in a very small and elite group you either become friends or quite bitter enemies when you are thrown into contact over and over.
Some friends I have on AZB and later in person were met originally on opposite sides in a thread. We all had the ability to think and grow. Of course there is at least one or two that will remain a dipshit for life, some people are born and raised that way, can't be helped!
Hu
Willie's autobiography, Willie's Game, has quite a bit about his interactions with Fats. What you say above was certainly true for many years. But one of the last things Willie says about Fats is: "...to my surprise, I found myself growing fond of Fats. How could I not like him? Every time he opened his mouth I made money, and his mouth was always open."
Could have been. Then again maybe it wasn't. I don't doubt you think you heard it somewhere...people make statements of fact based on that sort of conviction all the time....sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong.
And I agree with you on professional rivals who become friends. Happens all the time. Most rivals at the very least have respect for each other's skills and at best have actual and genuine admiration. Some even cooperate to better their profession.
And I fully agree that some folks are just fated to be lifelong bullshit shovelers. Often they are the exact same people who go around making matter-of-fact statements about things they think they heard.
Funny thing about me is that nowadays when I am about to make a statement of fact based on something I think I heard I will often google it just to check myself and find some corroboration. And if I don't do that then I mention that I think I heard it and ask for corroboration rather than state it as a fact. I find that to be a better way to do things in the information age than to simply spout "facts" that I am not sure of. Not everyone does this though, which is why Snopes is so popular.
As for Willie and Fats...well Willie hated him, absolutely detested him. I will reread Hustler and the Champ again because it's absolutely worth it. I think based on what I "think" I remember from the book it would have been quite a leap for Willie to end up friends with Fats.
a show
I suspect when Willie spent enough time around Fats he realized that what had made him angry for years was just show, not something Fats said in earnest. The same thing happened with Ali and Frazier, Ali and Foreman, Ali and Holmes. They were deeply upset with Ali's insults and lack of respect before a fight, only afterwards, in at least one case decades afterwards, did they come to understand that Ali was selling a show and had no animosity or disrespect towards them at all.
Hard to say if Willie even liked pool after the stroke especially, it was his job that brought in the family income. That he and Fats did indeed have in common, it was about the cheese! Plus Willie basically hustled Fats brutally when Fats let Willie decide the rules for an all around on TV. Willie modified all the games to favor skill heavily and brutalized Fats! Fats hadn't even looked at the rules and had to learn them as they went along. I think Fats expected to play by some established set of rules, not a customized version that had never been used before and never since as far as I know! The great hustler got hustled and pretty thoroughly embarrassed. I'm pretty sure Willie felt vindicated.
Hu
I suspect when Willie spent enough time around Fats he realized that what had made him angry for years was just show, not something Fats said in earnest. The same thing happened with Ali and Frazier, Ali and Foreman, Ali and Holmes. They were deeply upset with Ali's insults and lack of respect before a fight, only afterwards, in at least one case decades afterwards, did they come to understand that Ali was selling a show and had no animosity or disrespect towards them at all.
Hard to say if Willie even liked pool after the stroke especially, it was his job that brought in the family income. That he and Fats did indeed have in common, it was about the cheese! Plus Willie basically hustled Fats brutally when Fats let Willie decide the rules for an all around on TV. Willie modified all the games to favor skill heavily and brutalized Fats! Fats hadn't even looked at the rules and had to learn them as they went along. I think Fats expected to play by some established set of rules, not a customized version that had never been used before and never since as far as I know! The great hustler got hustled and pretty thoroughly embarrassed. I'm pretty sure Willie felt vindicated.
Hu