So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?
- Thread starter CreeDo
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Old Nine Baller
Banned
I was ten feet away from the table and when I saw that shot I KNEW!
Jeez Jay, you only knew AFTER Hall's last shot of the match?
Here's a view of the 8/9 combo just before Hall shoots the 7.
I heard this story many times....baseless....Hall dogged it, nerves, whatever. I know the reply..he never ever dogged a shot in his life, well I've seen him and everyone in that group miss unmissable shots in tournaments and cash games, it happens. If they conspired to dump it would never have gotten to hill hill OR down to two balls.
Old Nine Baller
Banned
You've heard this story many times but how many times did you see the match?
Part of the reason it came down to game 17 with the 8/9 on the table is because Lebron played so bad that Hall had to try to leave him as few balls on the table as possible. Earlier in game 17 Hall shot the 1 in the uptable pocket and scratched in the side (a shot I do not find suspicious). Lebron got BIH with the 1 ball on the spot and the 2 next to it. He made the 1 and missed the 2. Contrary to what many think, Lebron was not a top player at the same level as the other guys. Hall was #1 in the world at this time according to the commentator (Rempe I think).
That's what's so funny ,it about backfired..
Dammit man ...if Jay says it happened... it happened.
lol I meant bet on the confirmation bias aspect.
I have no idea what Jay is holding but I'd be foolish to call his bet since it could be a signed confession.
LeBron was ranked high and was certainly good enough to be there. I have analyzed every shot that we have seen and my conclusion is that there is no way Buddy lets it get to hill hill if he is dumping. he ran some tough racks which he could have missed any number of balls easily with no one the wiser. he let LeBron take a jump shot from a LeBron push which LeBron then made and ran out a tough rack. buddy could have taken it fouled the jump shot and left Mike ball in hand.
Old Nine Baller
Banned
Lebron was a 57 year old chump who couldn't carry the jocks of the other guys in this tourney. He was running the road with "Miami" for awhile and learned his "business" from and with him.
P.S. I know about the "jump shot" and every other shot in all 7 matches in the 1991 COC. I also have the DVD (which I believe I offered to you at no charge).
ONB
I got clues that's the whole point of the discussion.
instead of jumping on the dump bandwagon I looked hard at the match footage. then I compared the stories. read the statements and made my conclusion.
so the match footage does not prove a dump.
no one has confessed publicly. buddy says it wasn't a dump. matt Braun says it wasn't a dump. the casino hosted the coc for several more years and according to CJ continued to book action on it.
I suppose we contact the Mirage casino and find out if they did continue to take bets on the coc. if they did then that would certainly take out the argument that this ruined pool.
I have looked at all the shots. Hall didn't have to play for good position on the combo if he was dumping. he could have easily left himself with a larger angle on the eight.
I have already analyzed this shot for shot in this thread.
people have missed easier combos than this for far less money.
Old Nine Baller
Banned
We aren't talking about other people, we are talking about the #1 9 Ball player in the world at the time. How many combos this easy do you think B. Hall has missed for the cash? One?
ONB
maybe do but for this too work all the guys had to be in on it.
you say it was business and we hear all the stories about how great the hustlers were and yet these champions and veteran road players couldn't make it look better than this?
these great champions let a race to nine end up hill dependent on missing a combo to determine the outcome of a $90,000 score? these seasoned hardened gamblers who both had plenty of TV experience and backroom experience. ...who would have presumably discussed the match prior let it go all the way to the hill to that combo?
Maybe that's why they continued to have the event and take bets on it, LOL
Maybe you just haven't learned the high level pool that's going on. But when I watch other videos with Buddy Hall, he has his cue ball hitting perfect positions. Watching this Challenge of Champions shows Buddy Hall missing position after position, missing shots so easy most 'C' ranked players can see something odd going on. I know when I watched him miss that 8-9 combo, there was no way someone like Buddy Hall misses without throwing the match.
Only an idiot would try and convince themselves and others that there wasn't a dump. You have confirmation from someone involved that there was a fix going on. How do you deny evidence? You generally can argue well Mr. Barton, but in this case. You've gone off the deep end. You keep trying to deny the words of people involved. The only way you'll be happy is if you get a signed affidavit from everyone involved. But even then you'll argue that the signatures are forged.
I see the dump plain and clear. You could put me in that exact same situation, a million on the line. Not the $20k they were pressured with. I will make that shot all day long. I've faced way harder shots to win matches than that combo and have made them. You need to drop your attitude towards others and just stop trying to be correct all the time man. It's not healthy.
Old Nine Baller
Banned
I don't see it "plain & clear" and I have the DVD of all 7 matches.
I don't think I've ever said that I believe it was absolutely a dump although my posts lean in that direction. I could show you screenshots from all 7 matches that would make you think a dump did not occur. Players miss shots, it's that simple.
The bottom line is that when players are doing "business", the one who is supposed to win usually plays bad forcing the other guy to miss balls and position that he shouldn't or wouldn't ordinarily miss.
ONB
I don't think the combo was particularly easy. but let's say it was....why would the number one nine ball player in the world set himself up with an easy combo instead of just giving himself more angle and making it tougher?
on one hand you call him the best player and then don't give him credit for bot being good enough to have insured that the set doesn't come down to this shot.
really? you guys are so precise that you have never missed a combo on the wrong side?
To make sure he left an easy shot for Mike, when he missed on purpose.
NO way the 8-ball hits the side rail if Hall is trying to make that combo.
Not from where Hall shot the combo from and the way the balls were set up,
it's just not happening.
Old Nine Baller
Banned
It was game #13 with the score tied at 6-6 when Lebron pushed-out to the jump shot and he made it when Hall gave it back to him.
Lebron did not run out from there. He missed this 7 ball in the side and Hall ran out. Remember John, I'm not working off memory, I have the DVD of all 7 matches.
ONB
