Dropping the elbow about 3 inches .

BeiberLvr said:
lolwat?

Seems to me he was just complimenting the fact that you made a good post, and I agree with him.
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rick
this was my intent
to compliment you......:smile:
im sorry you thought i had devious intentions.....:(
i appreciate your effort and constructive comments from our pms
for those that read this rick gave me some good advice from some videos of me he watched
rick again thanks for your time in doing that...:thumbup:
to the op
i also apologize for the short side track of your thread
 
bbb said:
rick
this was my intent
to compliment you......:smile:
im sorry you thought i had devious intentions.....:(
i appreciate your effort and constructive comments from our pms
for those that read this rick gave me some good advice from some videos of me he watched
rick again thanks for your time in doing that...:thumbup:
to the op
i also apologize for the short side track of your thread
Click to expand...

Larry,

We're all good. Please check your PMs.

Best to Ya',
Rick
 
JoeyInCali said:
First, I have nothing against the pendulum stroke or the long piston stroke.
My eyesight is pretty bad now. I'm really farsighted now.
My tip is pretty far from the cue ball on practice strokes.
So, I decided to experiment . I started dropping my elbow about 3 inches on the final stroke.
To my surprise, it helped a lot in accuracy AND cue ball control.

I don't know if someone else has had this issue.
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Joey, I agree with the masses that dropping your elbow BEFORE contact due to POOR FORM, such as setting up too far from the cb, is detrimental.

But when you do it with intent and with GOOD FORM, it opens up a whole new world.

This whole, "It's OK to drop ONLY as long as it drops after contact," is a limiting statement. Don't allow others to force their limitations on you.
 
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FranCrimi said:
Joey, I agree with the masses that dropping your elbow BEFORE contact due to POOR FORM, such as setting up too far from the cb, is detrimental.

But when you do it with intent and with GOOD FORM, it opens up a whole new world.

This whole, "It's OK to drop ONLY as long as it drops after contact," is a limiting statement. Don't allow others to force their limitations on you.
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Can you elaborate on the portion in bold?

What shot or shots can be made dropping the elbow before contact that otherwise couldn't be made?

I drop my elbow (after contact) on most shots, and on some shots, not at all. At this point, I don't even think about it, but I never drop before contact.

How am I limiting myself?


Thanks
Jon
 
BeiberLvr said:
Can you elaborate on the portion in bold?

What shot or shots can be made dropping the elbow before contact that otherwise couldn't be made?

I drop my elbow (after contact) on most shots, and on some shots, not at all. At this point, I don't even think about it, but I never drop before contact.

How am I limiting myself?


Thanks
Jon
Click to expand...

The best I can do for you is to tell you how I learned. I trained myself to keep a rigid elbow, which is how I basically shoot. It took a lot for me to go out of my comfort zone and experiment with an elbow drop before contact that not only felt wrong, but made me feel totally insecure about my game. It was probably the most difficult change I ever made in my game because the old way was so ingrained in me.

Even after I felt fairly confident with it, I was afraid to use it in actual competition for a long time. But I didn't give up because I would occasionally get a glimpse of what happens when the timing is right and the shot is right.

After enough time practicing and perfecting my technique, choosing the right moment to do it is now pretty much second nature to me, and I'm still learning new things about it.

Not everyone is willing to go through what I did to figure it out. You will have to find out for yourself whether you have what it takes to go through the process.

As far as what shots to try, I won't hand out information on something I've worked so hard on only to be chopped up by naysayers who are quick to pan it after trying it for 5 minutes. Trust me. That's exactly what would happen.
 
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Thanks for your reply, Fran.

I'm sure you understand my not being in complete agreement with your original statement. Without providing specifics, it's difficult for me to comprehend how dropping the elbow before contact can do anything that can't be done with dropping after contact or not at all.

If you'd be willing to share some shots via PM, you have my word I wouldn't post any of it on here.

If not, that's fine as well. No hard feelings either way.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Thanks for your reply, Fran.

I'm sure you understand my not being in complete agreement with your original statement. Without providing specifics, it's difficult for me to comprehend how dropping the elbow before contact can do anything that can't be done with dropping after contact or not at all.

If you'd be willing to share some shots via PM, you have my word I wouldn't post any of it on here.

If not, that's fine as well. No hard feelings either way.
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Becoming a better player means taking risks and trying new things. Let go of the reluctance to try something that might not work out. Once in a while you have to close the books, shut down you-tube and just get to the table and take a risk. You're a smart guy. You'll figure it out if you want to.

And by the way ---- I gave you a lot of information. I gave you blow-by-blow of what that process felt like as I went through it. Some people would consider that pretty significant information. Don't treat that as irrelevant.
 
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Judd Trump - little to no elbow drop, even after the ball is long gone yet has incredible cue power and can generate ridiculous amounts of spin.

Mika Immonen - elbow is all over the place yet he also has plenty of cue power and can generate massive amounts of spin.

Would Judd have more shots within his capability if he dropped his elbow before? Would the same apply to Mika if he didn't drop his elbow?

Who knows...
 
Pidge said:
Judd Trump - little to no elbow drop, even after the ball is long gone yet has incredible cue power and can generate ridiculous amounts of spin.

Mika Immonen - elbow is all over the place yet he also has plenty of cue power and can generate massive amounts of spin.

Would Judd have more shots within his capability if he dropped his elbow before? Would the same apply to Mika if he didn't drop his elbow?

Who knows...
Click to expand...

Well, Allison herself said it snooker she didn't drop her elbow.
In pool, she does.
 
Pidge said:
Judd Trump - little to no elbow drop, even after the ball is long gone yet has incredible cue power and can generate ridiculous amounts of spin.

Mika Immonen - elbow is all over the place yet he also has plenty of cue power and can generate massive amounts of spin.

Would Judd have more shots within his capability if he dropped his elbow before? Would the same apply to Mika if he didn't drop his elbow?

Who knows...
Click to expand...

For me, Judd Trump is the perfect example against needing to drop one's elbow. Perfect textbook fundamentals aren't needed to play great pool. But if you want to learn perfect textbook fundamentals, just study Judd.

You can have your elbow still, drop before contact, or after contact. The things that matter most are not having the cue go left or right during delivery and hitting the CB at the required speed/angle/location.
 
BeiberLvr said:
For me, Judd Trump is the perfect example against needing to drop one's elbow. Perfect textbook fundamentals aren't needed to play great pool. But if you want to learn perfect textbook fundamentals, just study Judd.

You can have your elbow still, drop before contact, or after contact. The things that matter most are not having the cue go left or right during delivery and hitting the CB at the required speed/angle/location.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ypc_peV3EWE#t=113
Buddy Hall gets caught dropping the elbow on a soft shot .
Ronnie gets caught dropping it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bpeBugHSCnU#t=286
The biggest issue with not dropping the elbow is , you have to be perfect in timing that tip contacting the ball b/c as soon as it hits the cue ball, it will dip. Unless you release the cue of course.
On an elbow drop, the tip stays on the plane longer .
 
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The tip is in contact for less than the brain can fathom. So even when you think you've dropped it during contact, the ball has actually left the tip. I argue that the timing of ones stroke has to be more precise with a stroke like Mikas due to more moving parts. With Judd, because his elbow stays solid, all he has to do is get the tip as close to the CB as possible when feathering the CB to judge where he will contact. With a stroke like Mikas, because of all the up and down motion, no matter how close an amateur trying to emulate it gets when feathering they have to time the wrist, elbow and shoulder perfectly to hit where they lined up. Whereas Judd only has to time the elbow and wrist.
 
JoeyInCali said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ypc_peV3EWE#t=113
Buddy Hall gets caught dropping the elbow on a soft shot .
Ronnie gets caught dropping it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bpeBugHSCnU#t=286
The biggest issue with not dropping the elbow is , you have to be perfect in timing that tip contacting the ball b/c as soon as it hits the cue ball, it will dip. Unless you release the cue of course.
On an elbow drop, the tip stays on the plane longer .
Click to expand...

I'd guess that the majority of players drop. I do.

If you drop or don't drop, the tip going above or below the plane doesn't matter if it happens after contact. Now if you drop before contact, it could have negative results if you're timing is off. Like I said, what matters most is that the tip doesn't go left or right of the plane.

If you hit the CB in the right spot, and at the right speed, then what the elbow does is irrelevant.

The CB doesn't have a brain. It's not sitting there thinking, "Oh, he dropped his elbow, guess I better spin faster."
 
BeiberLvr said:
I'd guess that the majority of players drop. I do.

If you drop or don't drop, the tip going above or below the plane doesn't matter if it happens after contact. Now if you drop before contact, it could have negative results if you're timing is off. Like I said, what matters most is that the tip doesn't go left or right of the plane.

If you hit the CB in the right spot, and at the right speed, then what the elbow does is irrelevant.

The CB doesn't have a brain. It's not sitting there thinking, "Oh, he dropped his elbow, guess I better spin faster."
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By THINKING you are going straight though that plane , it makes up for a better stroke .
By that grip hand going up after contact, I think it creates a little "whip" motion.
A good test of the stroke is to shoot Bert Kinnister's shot number 1. I get more consistent with it with an elbow drop.
 
JoeyInCali said:
By THINKING you are going straight though that plane , it makes up for a better stroke .
By that grip hand going up after contact, I think it creates a little "whip" motion.
A good test of the stroke is to shoot Bert Kinnister's shot number 1. I get more consistent with it with an elbow drop.
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Is that the one where the CB is in the jaws of the corner pocket, OB center of the table, and you shoot it in the opposite corner while drawing the CB back to scratch?

If so, I like that shot, and am usually 40% to do it correctly.

Never recorded myself shooting it, so I can't say for certain whether or not I drop my elbow on that shot.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Is that the one where the CB is in the jaws of the corner pocket, OB center of the table, and you shoot it in the opposite corner while drawing the CB back to scratch?

If so, I like that shot, and am usually 40% to do it correctly.

Never recorded myself shooting it, so I can't say for certain whether or not I drop my elbow on that shot.
Click to expand...

It's replace the object ball shot.
Place an object ball 4 diamonds away, and stroke it just hard enough for the cueball to hit and roll half a ball.
 
JoeyInCali said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ypc_peV3EWE#t=113
Buddy Hall gets caught dropping the elbow on a soft shot .
Ronnie gets caught dropping it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bpeBugHSCnU#t=286
The biggest issue with not dropping the elbow is , you have to be perfect in timing that tip contacting the ball b/c as soon as it hits the cue ball, it will dip. Unless you release the cue of course.
On an elbow drop, the tip stays on the plane longer .
Click to expand...

As has been shown on here before, if you are going to use a pendulum stroke, you start with your tip very near the cb. Then, after initial contact, the cue will stay on a level plane for two to three inches, then it will make a sharp dip to the cloth. How long the cue stays on a level plane after contact has no bearing on the shot at all.

You might want to look at this thread- http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=331440&highlight=pendulum+stroke
 
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