Pool - Stopping the Decline and Going Mainstream
- Thread starter Push&Pool
- Start date
I just said 99% of pool is played in bars, but it's not primarily played by drunks. Sure, everyone will grab a couple of beers, but actual drunks playing the game is something I've seen maybe 5 times in my whole life.
Regarding the high school and college competitions, chess seems to be doing ok in that area, and it has always had a much more nerdy reputation than pool among kids and youth. I never heard someone make fun of pool, people just play it or they don't, and there are quite a few players around my age who are excellent and usually play against adults with much more experience on even terms... The same adults who used to play in tournaments, or still do.
I get what you mean, but everyone will eventually have to accept that bar pool is the peesent and near future of this sport. That's exactly why I say we need to invest more in league and casual pool. These aspects of the game are already doing better by a mile than any form of serious pool, and they have the potential for a lot more.
Pool has to grow from the bottom up. School playgrounds and street basketball yards are not basketball as well, but how many pro basketball players would we have if they hadn't started there?
To change people's opinion you must first match it, then pace it, then lead it
You are exactly right, pool's reputation isn't about gambling, and pool hustling, it's not been a factor in many, many years.
The problem is some people still do associate pool with con men, hustling and gambling only because they have no new information. They may have heard this about pool, and just believed it with no research at all. It's not possible to change what people feel about you, it's really none of our business, and this goes for pool on the larger scale as well.
To change people's opinion you must first match it, then pace it, then lead it to another way of thinking. Free will is a delicate thing, we can't ever try to tell someone that the pool world is different than what they think, they will natural rebel.
They need to hear road, gambling, and hustling stories first. Then they need to be able to digest the information and that's where the pacing comes in. Then, and only then can you lead them into seeing pool as we present it, in a polished, marketable form.
You are exactly right, pool's reputation isn't about gambling, and pool hustling, it's not been a factor in many, many years.
The problem is some people still do associate pool with con men, hustling and gambling only because they have no new information. They may have heard this about pool, and just believed it with no research at all. It's not possible to change what people feel about you, it's really none of our business, and this goes for pool on the larger scale as well.
To change people's opinion you must first match it, then pace it, then lead it to another way of thinking. Free will is a delicate thing, we can't ever try to tell someone that the pool world is different than what they think, they will natural rebel.
They need to hear road, gambling, and hustling stories first. Then they need to be able to digest the information and that's where the pacing comes in. Then, and only then can you lead them into seeing pool as we present it, in a polished, marketable form.
That's a great way of thinking. However, in most circumstances there isn't an opinion we can match and pace, as I'm afraid 95% of people who play the game on a more or less regular basis don' t even know what a hustler is. I've played pool for several years and I first heard of gambling and hustlers here, on this forum. The truth is that people who don't play, and even many of those who do, don't know literally anything about the sport, its history, its reputation, they never heard that professional pool, tournaments and competitions even exist. We have to start from scratch.
Obviously there aren't as many poolrooms around as there used to be. I've explained my situation many times about being away from the game for many years. My son brought me back in the game. He plays at the watering hole near his place of work and has his own equipment. He is what is termed a millennial. The millenials are playing in the bars and many of them are affluent and keeping the production cue makers and billiard supply houses alive and solvent. I'm lucky to have a great room 20 minutes from my house equipped with GC's, Diamonds, and Gandys. All 9 footers. We have a heated Gabriels 3 cushion and a 12 foot snooker also. My son now prefers the poolroom to the bar because the game is taken more seriously there. It is up to us on an individual basis to get these millenials, and younger, into the poolrooms and act as mentors. I asked my daughter last night if I could bring my 6 year old granddaughter with me to the room to introduce her to the game. What fun I will have playing with her and watching her progress if she takes a liking to the game.
Reply to Push and Pool
PushnPool,
I haven't read all of your replys but here is my observation.
Pool is like anything with people coming into it and going away from it all of the time. I think the magical trick is to develop ways to recruit new players. If you aren't feeding the game from the bottom what are you really doing?
There really isn't anything out there saying " Got Pool?"
Once we fill that void the game will begin a slow start back up if the recruitment efforts are ongoing. Until then its going to be about losing more than are coming in.
PushnPool,
I haven't read all of your replys but here is my observation.
Pool is like anything with people coming into it and going away from it all of the time. I think the magical trick is to develop ways to recruit new players. If you aren't feeding the game from the bottom what are you really doing?
There really isn't anything out there saying " Got Pool?"
Once we fill that void the game will begin a slow start back up if the recruitment efforts are ongoing. Until then its going to be about losing more than are coming in.
Feeding from the bottom. That's almost the exact expression I used. People who talk about saving pool mostly go on about media coverage and pros, they forget that we actually need a much larger base of new and average players first.
Speaking in terms of what I see in pool halls in the Tampa Bay area, it seems there are plenty of players "at the bottom" so to speak..., the real tricky part is getting them to take their involvement to the next level. Sadly, the only next level around is either handicapped league or gambling.
That's where this hypothetical global league would come in play. It wouldn't be handicapped and it would be a serious competition, but still primarily geared towards the casual and low-level players who could play and hang out with friends, bring more friends and family into pool, and at the same time practice their own skills. It would be a perfect step between purely casual pool and serious involvement.
Your idea is less appealing than the APA. The APA has handicaps AND rules that help lower-skilled players (slop) AND they dangle free trips to Las Vegas at the players.
I think macguy has it right: if you want to help grow pool, find a town without a poolroom and open one.
Good topic, Push&Pool. I do not think that anyone could create a world pool league as you suggest. That said, I like the idea of one main game and your suggestion it be 8 ball. If we want to create a stronger brand for pool, one that could attract fans and therefore sustained sponsorship and growth that choice could be a step in the right direction.
There are a lot of amateur league players that primarily play 8 ball (although, there has been some influx of 9 ball in APA for example) and the casual, bar player is almost exclusively 8 ball players. I love to watch pool. To me it is an art and as enjoyable to watch as golf and tennis and outstrips darts by a mile. In particular I like to watch world class snooker. I settle for visiting some major tournaments when I can and when I cannot I get the stream for them on PPV. I have many friends that play pool, love playing as I do, but cannot be bothered to watch. I have invited several to join me to watch Turning Stone, DCC, US Open, the Swanee, Ginky etc. but most are not interested because they find 9 ball boring to watch. They would watch 8 ball. The team concept of the Mosconi Cup was well received because of the USA vs Europe but even at that there were comments of ‘9 ball is boring’.
Jerry
9 ball has made the game too easy. Especially for the Pros and break cues, jump cues spreading the table break after break and running em off. 8 and 10 ball are more difficult even for Pros. Not a Pro alive that could beat Mosconi on a regular basis. Streaming is going to help but they need to clean up the dress code for tv. Even some Pros are a little too casual.
Helping
I have to agree with Macguy. If I were to design a great idea for a room it would be opened by someone who had already made their money and didn't mind giving people a break on the time. I saw a room recently do that and their business exploded, the juke box never stops and they sell lots of candy, crackers, sodas and beer.
It seems if people are real concerned about where their next dollar will come from it keeps them from giving a value for the players money which is a timeless way to encourage business in many cases.
I have to agree with Macguy. If I were to design a great idea for a room it would be opened by someone who had already made their money and didn't mind giving people a break on the time. I saw a room recently do that and their business exploded, the juke box never stops and they sell lots of candy, crackers, sodas and beer.
It seems if people are real concerned about where their next dollar will come from it keeps them from giving a value for the players money which is a timeless way to encourage business in many cases.
Banks
Banned
The idea that pool itself should be "profitable" for a location has been repeated so many times that I think most people believe it. Pool is the draw. The trick is, how do you fill the building and get people spending money.
I've got a great idea.. maybe.. just a matter of time to stash up a few bucks. That and all of the other things to be done in the meantime.
Edit: In some cases, pool may be the main sales item, but it's pretty rare.
I agree...the bait
Banks,
I agree Pool is the bait for anyone that is wanting to build a bar business. My theory is to advertise the Pool in places where you want to pick up a customer from. This allows you to choose the demographic group of your future patrons. They come for the Pool and end up finding a place to go relax and have a drink, watch the game, etc.
What I find equally disturbing besides the fact that not so many people aren't playing pool is the fact that many room owners don't advertise to the general public in some way so as to attract a new customer.
They seem to be stuck in the mentality of: If you build it they will come.
Banks,
I agree Pool is the bait for anyone that is wanting to build a bar business. My theory is to advertise the Pool in places where you want to pick up a customer from. This allows you to choose the demographic group of your future patrons. They come for the Pool and end up finding a place to go relax and have a drink, watch the game, etc.
What I find equally disturbing besides the fact that not so many people aren't playing pool is the fact that many room owners don't advertise to the general public in some way so as to attract a new customer.
They seem to be stuck in the mentality of: If you build it they will come.
Banks
Banned
The place I hang out at is pretty small. Usually the 4 Diamond tables are the first things to fill up. Sometimes there will be a couple or group of friends playing darts or on the little bumper shuffleboard. I even went to a place on Saturday night that had 4 red-felted barboxes in a rather large room. It was busy for a while, but even when it started dying down, those pool tables were still in use. They had small, hanging clipboards to write names down for who was next.
ok here we go again lol
i hope pool thrives again in the US as it is doing well in asia. but we have to recognize what pool is competing with, namely video games. young people these days like video games. they can sit at home and play online and connect with their buddies via internet etc. so this is what killed games like bowling, pool, ping pong etc. in the US- this is one factor/reality
edit: just to add- i have played video games my whole life, and one thing that i think pool has over video games is that pool is pool. video games constantly change. so you may play a game for a thousand hours, and then a new one comes out a couple of years later and you never play that game again. with pool, you can play it your whole life, go anywhere in the world and play it and meet people from different walks of life. this is one dynamic that i think older games like pool have on video games.
another is the lack of connection between amateur ranks and pro ranks. there is really not any clear way for amateurs to know how close they are to playing pro speed, or for that matter short stop etc. i mean, we have ranks in APA, but how accurate are they and what is the benefit of getting to a high rank?
then there is the pros. which im not sure what is going on with that. i think this is a more complex question. but more or less i see it as a serious lack in coordination among billiard organizations, sponsors, retailers etc. i am not sure if the demand is not there to watch pool, or if there is just not enough put into advertisement and marketing. i agree with the notion that there needs to be more high paying events for pros to play in, provided that these events will have some sort of media coverage and turn out.
in general though, i think the industry needs to take several large steps in promoting the game to younger people while at the same time striving to put pool back into the discussion of amercian gaming and sports.
i think a tv series like anthony bourdain would be a good idea for pool. get a strong player with a good personality traveling the world to play in different pool halls etc. and meet people from around the world. i think something like this could really tie up the whole billiard game to a general american audience.
i hope pool thrives again in the US as it is doing well in asia. but we have to recognize what pool is competing with, namely video games. young people these days like video games. they can sit at home and play online and connect with their buddies via internet etc. so this is what killed games like bowling, pool, ping pong etc. in the US- this is one factor/reality
edit: just to add- i have played video games my whole life, and one thing that i think pool has over video games is that pool is pool. video games constantly change. so you may play a game for a thousand hours, and then a new one comes out a couple of years later and you never play that game again. with pool, you can play it your whole life, go anywhere in the world and play it and meet people from different walks of life. this is one dynamic that i think older games like pool have on video games.
another is the lack of connection between amateur ranks and pro ranks. there is really not any clear way for amateurs to know how close they are to playing pro speed, or for that matter short stop etc. i mean, we have ranks in APA, but how accurate are they and what is the benefit of getting to a high rank?
then there is the pros. which im not sure what is going on with that. i think this is a more complex question. but more or less i see it as a serious lack in coordination among billiard organizations, sponsors, retailers etc. i am not sure if the demand is not there to watch pool, or if there is just not enough put into advertisement and marketing. i agree with the notion that there needs to be more high paying events for pros to play in, provided that these events will have some sort of media coverage and turn out.
in general though, i think the industry needs to take several large steps in promoting the game to younger people while at the same time striving to put pool back into the discussion of amercian gaming and sports.
i think a tv series like anthony bourdain would be a good idea for pool. get a strong player with a good personality traveling the world to play in different pool halls etc. and meet people from around the world. i think something like this could really tie up the whole billiard game to a general american audience.
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The Markets The Markets
Well Ive seen a few things that tell me the Market Has Changed.
How many people do you know that can drop $15 to $20 three to 4 times a week and think nothing of it month after month?
At $60 to $80 dollars a week that would put a Pool Habit at around $ 240 to $320 dollars a month......groceries are high.....gas has been high and people have mouths to feed. Some of them save nothing for retirement, emergencies etc
That makes pool as a regular hobby kind of expensive.
Yes I love pool but economically it is what it is. One can afford only so much unless they play league pool or hit the specials every week and make that what they do.
That's what I do and I am playing more with better players that have a table.
I recently witnessed a room lower rates Monday thru Thursday evening and the business exploded. It seems its hard for a Room Owner to get past himself but when he does it has some rewards. Now the Juke Box never stops, people eat and drink and more people are present.
I think this is a clear indication that People want a Value for their money and the Market Has Changed somewhat for the viability of paying the highest price per hour for it.
It might even clue us into some reality about what this....Sport .....cost to play. I could save that much money over time and partially retire on it if I did it a long time. That's a lot of dough for entertainment.
All that being said:
Pool is like many things People come into it and leave it on a regular basis. Only the die-hards remain because they find a way to be able to afford a level of play that they can live with. Do they spend money ....Yes.....but they don't spend it like it was found growing on trees because......its expensive .....and they have reached a point in the Pool Life Cycle where they really don't have to have it to the point they will impoverish themselves.
A New Player....is different.
He is trying to master his new love so he finds the money somehow. Everyone is looking for a cheap way to play pool and many room owners are missing the boat on some of that money by not having specials that are available on a regular basis to fulfill that need of their regular crowd.
Its a lot of things video games, no Color of Money, yada, yada , yada, but what it likely is, is an industry which because of video games, the rising rent, etc whose market has changed and the economic raise in hourly rates that was thought to have been needed due to raising expenses....might have been the exact wrong thing to do.
In that way Pool Rooms could move out of Sportbars eventually and into small home town rooms that sell snacks, beer and crackers and are open to kids.
They won't make the owners rich but they will provide a few jobs, provide a place for kids to go and return the Lifecycle of Pool back to some normalcy....if retired guys go to opening Pool Rooms to have somewhere to hangout.
It could happen but the way I see it, when the noise is excluded....
The Overall Market Changed and we have failed to respond up to this point.
Well Ive seen a few things that tell me the Market Has Changed.
How many people do you know that can drop $15 to $20 three to 4 times a week and think nothing of it month after month?
At $60 to $80 dollars a week that would put a Pool Habit at around $ 240 to $320 dollars a month......groceries are high.....gas has been high and people have mouths to feed. Some of them save nothing for retirement, emergencies etc
That makes pool as a regular hobby kind of expensive.
Yes I love pool but economically it is what it is. One can afford only so much unless they play league pool or hit the specials every week and make that what they do.
That's what I do and I am playing more with better players that have a table.
I recently witnessed a room lower rates Monday thru Thursday evening and the business exploded. It seems its hard for a Room Owner to get past himself but when he does it has some rewards. Now the Juke Box never stops, people eat and drink and more people are present.
I think this is a clear indication that People want a Value for their money and the Market Has Changed somewhat for the viability of paying the highest price per hour for it.
It might even clue us into some reality about what this....Sport .....cost to play. I could save that much money over time and partially retire on it if I did it a long time. That's a lot of dough for entertainment.
All that being said:
Pool is like many things People come into it and leave it on a regular basis. Only the die-hards remain because they find a way to be able to afford a level of play that they can live with. Do they spend money ....Yes.....but they don't spend it like it was found growing on trees because......its expensive .....and they have reached a point in the Pool Life Cycle where they really don't have to have it to the point they will impoverish themselves.
A New Player....is different.
He is trying to master his new love so he finds the money somehow. Everyone is looking for a cheap way to play pool and many room owners are missing the boat on some of that money by not having specials that are available on a regular basis to fulfill that need of their regular crowd.
Its a lot of things video games, no Color of Money, yada, yada , yada, but what it likely is, is an industry which because of video games, the rising rent, etc whose market has changed and the economic raise in hourly rates that was thought to have been needed due to raising expenses....might have been the exact wrong thing to do.
In that way Pool Rooms could move out of Sportbars eventually and into small home town rooms that sell snacks, beer and crackers and are open to kids.
They won't make the owners rich but they will provide a few jobs, provide a place for kids to go and return the Lifecycle of Pool back to some normalcy....if retired guys go to opening Pool Rooms to have somewhere to hangout.
It could happen but the way I see it, when the noise is excluded....
The Overall Market Changed and we have failed to respond up to this point.
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Pool halls shouldn't charge more than bars do today, and bars should be charging even less. That will attract the crowd, and both pool hals and bars would earn even more money on drinks, food, poker machines etc.