Shaun Murphy on Kicks/Skids

[Pidge]

Watching the Masters Final between Robertson and Murphy and in the interval a little segment came on with Murphy talking about the dreaded kick, or skid as its also known.

He says that the under table heating that all TV tables have, the above lighting (which is ridiculously hot in some venues) and the oil that is always present in the cloth causes an eroding effect on the balls surface. He states it creates areas on the balls that have a worn finish and when these areas collide the result is a kick.

His recommended solution is to polish the balls with the ball manufacturers polish solution (Aramith) and changing the ball sets periodically throughout a match, similar to what they do in tennis.

Thoughts?

 

[BeiberLvr]

If that's truly a cause and the polish works, then I say go for it.

But I don't think it's the only cause.

Some say that chalk can cause kicks/skids. Ron Swanson said Steve Davis thinks it's poor cue action.

Will the polish fix those issues as well?

 

[Pidge]

If that's truly a cause and the polish works, then I say go for it.

But I don't think it's the only cause.

Some say that chalk can cause kicks/skids. Ron Swanson said Steve Davis thinks it's poor cue action.

Will the polish fix those issues as well?

Its friction. So, if the heated oils on the table heats the finish of the balls and erodes them then the heated parts will cause more friction than a nice glossed polished ball. Chalk, again causes more friction.

Poor cue action...nahh. Maybe on the white ball when it hops up when playing topspin shots. Its usually down to a cue that isn't level. But when the object ball hops up a centimeter or two when the cue ball clearly rolls and doesn't leave the table then its nothing to do with your cue action.

I don't experience nearly half as many kicks in pool than I do on snooker tables. And I don't experience nearly half as many kicks on club tables compared to heated tables with lots of lighting above.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

If that's truly a cause and the polish works, then I say go for it.

But I don't think it's the only cause.

Some say that chalk can cause kicks/skids. Ron Swanson said Steve Davis thinks it's poor cue action.

Will the polish fix those issues as well?

Archer says he only gets skids when he quits on his stroke. If he puts a good stroke on the ball he never gets a skid. Can he really tell?

Probably.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Oil at 25 degrees celcius eroding part of the phenolic resin due to the abrasive nature of sitting on or sliding across the slippery cloth eh?

I think it's pretty safe to say that this is a wild theory of a guy who probably doesn't know the symbol for more than 3 periodic table elements and thinks that conservation of momentum is a Green Political Philosophy.

He's potting like a monster tonight, so maybe what he says should be put in the 'maybe' file, but being able to pot balls, does not a physicist make. Some of the best have made ridiculous statements in the past.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Archer says he only gets skids when he quits on his stroke. If he puts a good stroke on the ball he never gets a skid. Can he really tell?

Probably.

So you can't put a good stoke on a soft roll shot? Is Archer an expert on skids.... NO!

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Its friction. So, if the heated oils on the table heats the finish of the balls and erodes them then the heated parts will cause more friction than a nice glossed polished ball. Chalk, again causes more friction.

Here's a photo of a grand masse shot heating up the ball real good. Notice the band of color around the CB, then look to the right at the legend to see the resulting change in temperature.

A whopping 2-3 degrees C, bringing the temp of that band all the way up to an astounding 37ºC... normal body temperature.

Same with the lights. Anybody ever bring an IR thermometer to a pro tourney and get a reading off the TV table? Well, I'm bringing mine to the next Turning Stone and will be reporting the findings here. Long gone are the days of using huge high-output incandescent bulbs to light the playing area and table surface. I'll bet I won't even be able to detect a 10ºF difference in playing surface temps between the TV table and the rest of the tables there. Any takers?

Do modern phenolic resins undergo any sort of measurable change over a few degree rise in temps. These are some of the most stable compounds out there. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, "Not a feckin' chance."

In short, I think Mr. Murphy should stick to what he knows well, rather than speculating about things he hasn't really researched.

 

[Poolmanis]

Ronnie O'Sullivan have maybe 1 to 10 times kick/skid when compared to another pros. So probably there is a lot truth about stroke affecting skids..


See and count skids what happened in last WC against Selby if you don't buy it.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

So you can't put a good stoke on a soft roll shot? Is Archer an expert on skids.... NO!

No, I don't think he is, just quoting him is all. I don't think anybody is, really. Lots of theories, but balls keep skidding as if they could care less what we think (maybe they don't ). One of the wonderful mysteries of billiards.

 

[Pidge]

Here's a photo of a grand masse shot heating up the ball real good. Notice the band of color around the CB, then look to the right at the legend to see the resulting change in temperature.

A whopping 2-3 degrees C, bringing the temp of that band all the way up to an astounding 37ºC... normal body temperature.

Same with the lights. Anybody ever bring an IR thermometer to a pro tourney and get a reading off the TV table? Well, I'm bringing mine to the next Turning Stone and will be reporting the findings here. Long gone are the days of using huge high-output incandescent bulbs to light the playing area and table surface. I'll bet I won't even be able to detect a 10ºF difference in playing surface temps between the TV table and the rest of the tables there. Any takers?

Do modern phenolic resins undergo any sort of measurable change over a few degree rise in temps. These are some of the most stable compounds out there. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, "Not a feckin' chance."

In short, I think Mr. Murphy should stick to what he knows well, rather than speculating about things he hasn't really researched.

I believe he has done the research. On the TV they mentioned Shaun and somebody else have been investigating why kicks occur. This "somebody else" is the key. I forgot their name but I'm assuming they're a physics expert. Shaun wouldn't put out such a statement when its him and his mate Derrick from down the pub that came to this conclusion. I would assume Shaun is purely a spokesperson for who ever came up with the conclusion to make people take note.

 

[gregcantrall]

Oil at 25 degrees celcius eroding part of the phenolic resin due to the abrasive nature of sitting on or sliding across the slippery cloth eh?

I think it's pretty safe to say that this is a wild theory of a guy who probably doesn't know the symbol for more than 3 periodic table elements and thinks that conservation of momentum is a Green Political Philosophy.

He's potting like a monster tonight, so maybe what he says should be put in the 'maybe' file, but being able to pot balls, does not a physicist make. Some of the best have made ridiculous statements in the past.

I took it to mean it was eroding the polish on the surface and not the resin of the ball. Hence polishing the balls periodically was offered as a solution.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Here's a photo of a grand masse shot heating up the ball real good. Notice the band of color around the CB, then look to the right at the legend to see the resulting change in temperature.

A whopping 2-3 degrees C, bringing the temp of that band all the way up to an astounding 37ºC... normal body temperature.

Same with the lights. Anybody ever bring an IR thermometer to a pro tourney and get a reading off the TV table? Well, I'm bringing mine to the next Turning Stone and will be reporting the findings here. Long gone are the days of using huge high-output incandescent bulbs to light the playing area and table surface. I'll bet I won't even be able to detect a 10ºF difference in playing surface temps between the TV table and the rest of the tables there. Any takers?

Do modern phenolic resins undergo any sort of measurable change over a few degree rise in temps. These are some of the most stable compounds out there. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, "Not a feckin' chance."

In short, I think Mr. Murphy should stick to what he knows well, rather than speculating about things he hasn't really researched.

Stick to what he does best? Do you mean a) play snooker and b) notice what happens when snooker balls collide?

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Pidge did they get the left head of the table leveled for the semis and finals ?

 

[Colin Colenso]

I believe he has done the research. On the TV they mentioned Shaun and somebody else have been investigating why kicks occur. This "somebody else" is the key. I forgot their name but I'm assuming they're a physics expert. Shaun wouldn't put out such a statement when its him and his mate Derrick from down the pub that came to this conclusion. I would assume Shaun is purely a spokesperson for who ever came up with the conclusion to make people take note.

Hi Pidge,
I'm not getting the BBC broadcast, just a streaming site, so missed Shaun's interview.

It wouldn't surprise me if the heating or drying effect influences kicks / skids in some way.... but the way it seems Shawn described what may have been found, is interesting to note, but sounds highly dubious... esp in regard to eroding.

 

[Ron Swanson]

If that's truly a cause and the polish works, then I say go for it.

But I don't think it's the only cause.

Some say that chalk can cause kicks/skids. Ron Swanson said Steve Davis thinks it's poor cue action.

Will the polish fix those issues as well?

Actually, the players i mentioned were osullivan and hendry, but i have no doubt davis will concur, also.

Cue the ball well and you need not fear a kick. This is the ONLY thing everyone involved in the sport agrees on - apart from pixie dust, obviously.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Watching the Masters Final between Robertson and Murphy and in the interval a little segment came on with Murphy talking about the dreaded kick, or skid as its also known.

He says that the under table heating that all TV tables have, the above lighting (which is ridiculously hot in some venues) and the oil that is always present in the cloth causes an eroding effect on the balls surface. He states it creates areas on the balls that have a worn finish and when these areas collide the result is a kick.

His recommended solution is to polish the balls with the ball manufacturers polish solution (Aramith) and changing the ball sets periodically throughout a match, similar to what they do in tennis.

Thoughts?

I got kicks galore after cleaning my set with the aramith ball cleaner. They became so unplayable i gave them away.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I took it to mean it was eroding the polish on the surface and not the resin of the ball. Hence polishing the balls periodically was offered as a solution.

Thanks for the insight Greg. I was speculating based on a tidbit. Regarding polish, I've never polished my snooker balls and after 10+ years I still either get a kick or I don't. Maybe some mini kicks occur that aren't too noticeable, but it would seem, if a lack of polish causes kicks, I'd be getting them all the time.

Static electricity on dry balls, making them pick up dust particles seems a candidate to me, aside from the obvious chalk mark.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Stick to what he does best? Do you mean a) play snooker and b) notice what happens when snooker balls collide?

You got it. Then let others figure out why they do what they do when they collide.

There was a lot of research a few years ago in the snooker world about skids. The astounding conclusion? Static discharge. :thumbup:

So, why research the thing if the answer is already "known"?

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Static electricity on dry balls, making them pick up dust particles seems a candidate to me, aside from the obvious chalk mark.

After reading the work on static discharge and skids (which was subsequently disproved), I thought of that same possibility regarding static and dust, and mentioned it here a few times. I was laughed at and handed my "Tinfoil Hat Society" membership card.

 

[bdorman]

IMHO we're overlooking the obvious...which is understandable when you spend Sunday mornings in the pool hall instead of church: God causes skids.

When you can't find a rational explanation and the cause appears to be a total mystery, it must be divine intervention. I recommend seeking the advice of your pastor rather than a billiards instructor.

That's why the ultra-religous are referred to as FUNDAMENTALists.

You doubt it? Okay, name one pastor who experienced a skid in the last five major tournaments. Case closed.