Banking on Tables with High Speed cloth

[ssbn610g]

For an amateur, I feel my bank game is pretty good and I have a really good feel for how a ball comes off the rails and I do use banking systems when I feel I need to. However, I have had real trouble banking on certain tables. After investigating a bit, I have come to a conclusion that it has to do with high speed cushions. The rail seems to grab the ball much more so if I am doing a stun bank the ball really comes up a lot shorter than I expect. Banking on these types of tables I find follow and low works really well. Anything hit hard is a problem for me.

Are there other possibilities such as rail cloth that affect the shot and is my conclusion logical or am I all wet??

Al

 

[ssbn610g]

Postscript: I intend to do a bunch of practice on one of these tables today and see if I can measure a difference by setting up a control shot that I can try on other tables.

Al

Going to go play pool now.

 

[ssbn610g]

Hi Speed cushions!!!

Sorry, meant to say high speed cushions.

Al

 

[DAVE_M]

For an amateur, I feel my bank game is pretty good and I have a really good feel for how a ball comes off the rails and I do use banking systems when I feel I need to. However, I have had real trouble banking on certain tables. After investigating a bit, I have come to a conclusion that it has to do with high speed cushions. The rail seems to grab the ball much more so if I am doing a stun bank the ball really comes up a lot shorter than I expect. Banking on these types of tables I find follow and low works really well. Anything hit hard is a problem for me.

Are there other possibilities such as rail cloth that affect the shot and is my conclusion logical or am I all wet??

Al

Speed and spin will dictate where the cue ball goes. If you need to hit a bank soft, you adjust for that. If you need to hit a bank firm, you adjust for that. Dr. Dave has a ton of videos on the subject matter.

If you're shooting firm and the balls are coming short, you don't understand banking as well as you thought you did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjeMWHfmMk4

 

[jaetee]

All banks are speed dependent, above and beyond whatever english you put on the cue ball. Fast cushion/cloth tables will accentuate that dynamic even more.

If you hit a really hard shot into a rail, the angle will be shorter because the ball has less time to react to the dynamics of the cushion itself. And if you hit the same shot softer, you should see the angle will be will longer, as the cue ball will have more time to react to the cushion and english.

 

[philly]

Inside english shortens the angle (straightens the angle out) and outside english widens the angle.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... If you hit a really hard shot into a rail, the angle will be shorter because the ball has less time to react to the dynamics of the cushion itself. ...

Actually, this turns out to be mostly false. It is the lack of follow on the object ball on high-speed shots that is mostly the cause of the bank angle changing. If the object ball has time to get forward roll, the bank will go longer. This is easy to demonstrate.

 

[ssbn610g]

Good answers and it is pretty much what I expected. There is a lot of feel on shots that I just don't possess. The practice session just finished about an hour ago shows I need more work. It is just amazing how different that tables are between different pool rooms. The faster speed cushions seemed to be more sensitive for me and I just need to do more banking drills to get that "feel".

Thanks all

Al

 

[De420MadHatter]

You may have a good feel for banks, just not used to fast rails like a Diamond has. If you are used to playing on Valleys and switch to a Diamond, your banks are gonna be shorter than they were on the Valley. Takes a little time to adjust.

 

[ssbn610g]

You may have a good feel for banks, just not used to fast rails like a Diamond has. If you are used to playing on Valleys and switch to a Diamond, your banks are gonna be shorter than they were on the Valley. Takes a little time to adjust.

Yep, this sums it up pretty well. This is exactly my observation and my workout today went pretty well.

Al

 

[ssbn610g]

Speed and spin will dictate where the cue ball goes. If you need to hit a bank soft, you adjust for that. If you need to hit a bank firm, you adjust for that. Dr. Dave has a ton of videos on the subject matter.

If you're shooting firm and the balls are coming short, you don't understand banking as well as you thought you did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjeMWHfmMk4

OK. Interesting. I watched this video and frankly I am a bit confused. I am going to go through some of Dr. Dave's videos and see what I can figure out.

I setup a two diamond bank shot into the side pocket and found the spots and angle to make the bank very consistently. When I hit the object ball harder on the same angle, I could swear the shot came up shorter consistently.

Al

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I setup a two diamond bank shot into the side pocket and found the spots and angle to make the bank very consistently. When I hit the object ball harder on the same angle, I could swear the shot came up shorter consistently.

Al

How far from the cushion was the object ball?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

OK. Interesting. I watched this video and frankly I am a bit confused. I am going to go through some of Dr. Dave's videos and see what I can figure out.

I setup a two diamond bank shot into the side pocket and found the spots and angle to make the bank very consistently. When I hit the object ball harder on the same angle, I could swear the shot came up shorter consistently.

Al

As Bob says, a sliding (not fully rolling) OB banks short. If you hit it hard (even from some distance depending on how hard), the OB won't be fully rolling when it hits the rail.

Other less-well-known effects are:

The rail hits the OB above center, which puts some cross-table topspin on it, which shortens the rebound. This effect can be easily seen if you watch for it, especially on harder shots - but I'm not sure if hitting harder makes it shorten more or just makes it more visible.

Because of less-than-perfect rebound efficiency, the rail absorbs some of the OB's cross-table speed, making it rebound longer. On the other hand, friction between the ball and rail reduces the OB's along-table speed, making it rebound shorter. These two effects occur on every bank shot (fast or slow), and counteract each other to some degree.

pj
chgo

 

[realkingcobra]

For an amateur, I feel my bank game is pretty good and I have a really good feel for how a ball comes off the rails and I do use banking systems when I feel I need to. However, I have had real trouble banking on certain tables. After investigating a bit, I have come to a conclusion that it has to do with high speed cushions. The rail seems to grab the ball much more so if I am doing a stun bank the ball really comes up a lot shorter than I expect. Banking on these types of tables I find follow and low works really well. Anything hit hard is a problem for me.

Are there other possibilities such as rail cloth that affect the shot and is my conclusion logical or am I all wet??

Al

First of all, there is no such thing as high speed cushions. Reason being, 10 different table manufactures using the same exact same cushions, but with different sub-rails in their design, are going to produce 10 different playing tables, some slower, some faster.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

After investigating a bit, I have come to a conclusion that it has to do with high speed cushions. The rail seems to grab the ball much more so if I am doing a stun bank the ball really comes up a lot shorter than I expect.

One possible reason for this (as I alluded to in my other post above) is that faster cushions don't absorb as much of the OB's cross-table velocity, so the usual lengthening effect of that is less.

pj
chgo

 

[pt109]

Dear PJ.....I've been missing a lot of banks lately.....
...should I get a new debit card?

I guess I could've just sais "Welcome back.".

Regards
pt

 

[ssbn610g]

How far from the cushion was the object ball?

Bob, I setup the CB about 2 balls from the rail and the OB at mid table. BTW - Here is a shot off Dr. Dave site. BTW - I saw your video and that is what has me confused also.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV6-6.htm

I watched many of the videos and learned a lot. Somehow we have gotten off my original question which was about the difficulty I had between disparate tables one using high performance cushions which I seem to have issues with. Angles of the rebound angle "seem" to be different and they just don't seem right to me. After going through many of the videos I see there is a whole bag of worms about different effects such as the coefficient of restitution. I have known about the effects of english (top/bottom/left/right/bottom left or right/top left or right) and have used their effects.

I really appreciate your comments and I need to do more practice on the tables I am having a hard time with and make them my new normal.

Thanks

Al

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Dear PJ.....I've been missing a lot of banks lately.....
...should I get a new debit card?

I guess I could've just sais "Welcome back.".

Regards
pt

lol

I'm the President of the Bank here at my home room - so just send your money to me and then shoot me a PM whenever you need some - no card of any kind needed. Low monthly fees!

Thanks for the welcome, pt,

pj
chgo

 

[ssbn610g]

One possible reason for this (as I alluded to in my other post above) is that faster cushions don't absorb as much of the OB's cross-table velocity, so the usual lengthening effect of that is less.

pj
chgo

This certainly plausible. Appreciate the input.

Al

 

[ssbn610g]

First of all, there is no such thing as high speed cushions. Reason being, 10 different table manufactures using the same exact same cushions, but with different sub-rails in their design, are going to produce 10 different playing tables, some slower, some faster.

Interesting. This onion seems to have many layers and they all make me cry. :crying::thumbup: I found a bunch of marketing material about Brunswick SuperSpeed cushions and how they are more consistent. They also showed the entire rubber rail process and how they measured the rebound using a Reometer. I have done a bunch of reading about the rubber rails and my head is spinning. Thanks for your input.

Al