Sandbagger!

[rocket23]

This may seem like sour grapes, But I digress, This is the 2nd time I lost 2 games to 1. I lost the 1st match, won the 2nd, lost the 3rd.....match over! In APA, the players are given a number, the higher the number the better you are percieved to be.....( I agree ).
However in the league I am in, the players are given a higher number (regarding how many balls one should make in a match), I played 2 35's which in reality , should be push overs. They were no where close, masse's, draw shots, frigging kick shots......... Their way of handicapping sucks, plain and simple..........It needs to be addressed.
That being said, ( I had to get it off my chest). I shot a good game tonight......I'll take it and pity the fool I see next week.
rant over.:sorry:

 

[rocket23]

subscribe.

 

[jeffj2h]

Join APA Masters. No handicap.

I think BCAPL is non-handicap. At least it is in my area. They have different divisions (eg "A", "B", and "Masters") for different skill levels. Once you are in that division, no handicapping.

 

[cuesblues]

I played a 3 in an APA tournament, and the guy was kicking balls in, banking, drawing
the cueball around the table, and playing safe.
Sandbagging is a way of life in certain leagues or divisions, cities, whatever.
In the TAP league where you have to keep track of shots missed, completions,
safeties, balls made on the break, balls left on the table, we had one team that kept
track of how many misses or completions they needed to move up or down.
The team captain moved up to a 5, and she threw a fit because she knew better, and
they moved her back to a 4.

People can say what they want about league pool, and how it saved pool and pool
rooms, on & on, but in my opinion league pool is what messed everything up in the first place.
I remember the first time I heard about a pool league in the 70's:

Pool leagues?
You mean like a bowling league?
No shit!
You mean we can't play on the tables until 2:00 am?
Gee, I think I'll concentrate on meeting girls, and building a career.

 

[rocket23]

2 very good points...after writing the initial thread, it came to me to just run the balls off the table so the offending players never get their chance. Problem solved. ( I only wish I had the killer instinct to do so).:embarrassed2:

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Frustrating isn't it. Specially if you know 100% that is what is happening.

In our local VNEA League, other than the Novice Division, as per request, no more Handicaps.

Hard to play a team with one 8, 2 sevens and one 6.

Come tournament time, they get a 20 point handicap lead. The sevens start playing like 9's and the 6 is playing as an 8.

By the time you are done 5 matches, with 11 more to go, you basically know that you are already FKed.

What is the point as you are wasting your time and money.

We had one Novice team that was first place all year based on winning all their games on handicap points. (24 points Max, BTW). They win the half year tourney the same way and go on to Represent the Novice Division in our League in the Western Candians.

Handicap points are fine, or are they at times. These players knew the skinny and you could tell there was no attempt to actually play well during a match. It was a joke and one may as well have just raked the balls after every break and conceded the evening, cause all you were doing was wasting time banging balls around.

Going into an evening, they already knew how many games they had to win and how many balls they had to make to win in order to keep on top.

 

[Dockter]

Come tournament time, they get a 20 point handicap lead. The sevens start playing like 9's and the 6 is playing as an 8.

By the time you are done 5 matches, with 11 more to go, you basically know that you are already FKed.

That's the nice thing around South Dakota. We play VNEA but none of the tournaments are handicapped. We have Open, A , B and C divisions. Sucks at times because I've been in a few with only 16 teams in the division but I would rather see that then give up the mega handicaps. Of course we still have people that find a way to play down but it can only happen a time or two before they can't get away with it anymore.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Exactly Bud. That is the way it eventually went down up here.

Handicaps in regular play but no handicaps in a tourney. Then, not handicaps. Except
for Novice Play.

At the time, we were playing in the Vegas Division. Try hard all year as a Team, and get beat out by Handicap points, not by good playing.

At first, our LO tried to make it so the bottom 2 teams wouldn't be allowed to play in the tourney, so as to keep at least the bottom 2 from Bagging. But, that wasn't totally fair as the bottom 2 teams may have been just lagging, and not bagging.

Everyone is happy now. Run what ya brung.

 

[Johnnyt]

Whichever you call it, Sandbagging or on the lemon, it's been around for 100 years or more. Johnnyt

 

[ctyhntr]

Have you made your concerns known to the league director, or the person who operates the league?

You can rant all you want, but it will not change anything next week. If you give your league director a chance to address your concerns, maybe it would improve the situation you and for everyone else.

If a player is incorrectly handicapped by the league, or league director then it's not sandbagging. I used to play in a Team 8-ball league, and we had a new league director. The guy has been ranked at open level, and plays for money on a regular basis. So, I figured he would know how to judge players speed. Turns out, he had trouble judging anyone's skill who was less than a C, and lumped them in with the beginners handicaps.

 

[trob]

It's more of a failure by the league operator then the league. But yes I've been told by many people who love Apa that if your not sand bagging your gonna get smoked in Vegas. Every area is going to have different level of play. Your handy cap is based on your local play not national but you shouldn't goto a national tournament and have mid level players stringing racks against you... But you will

 

[Hajidub]

From my experiences it seems sandbagging (as many call it) tends to be more of an issue in APA (non-master division) leagues. Their system is flawed. I haven't experienced bagging issues in BCA or NAPA yet.

 

[tuffstuff07]

The last two weeks I watched a 3 run 5 balls and out against me and tonight watch a 3 beat our 6 running out with shape in apa.

 

[oldplayer]

Join APA Masters. No handicap.

I think BCAPL is non-handicap. At least it is in my area. They have different divisions (eg "A", "B", and "Masters") for different skill levels. Once you are in that division, no handicapping.

i joined the masters a couple of years ago and it is refreshing to say the least. way too much crap going on in tap and apa.....I understand tap has started a masters league but it has not gotten to this town yet. I would join that as the apa master's rule allows slop shots whereas tap does not. but, hey, the master's league is better than the alternative. :thumbup:

 

[rocket23]

The last two weeks I watched a 3 run 5 balls and out against me and tonight watch a 3 beat our 6 running out with shape in apa.

eventually, People get a reputation and I have seen handicaps move up on players who have gotten better, (with APA).
But what happened last night and a few weeks before, is hard to fathom. In our league ya have to win games ,but ball count is what drives the league.

So a ''35'' handicap gets a point a ball and another 7 on the eight. So in 3 games time he makes his 35 while I sit there wondering what just happened..Each game was competitive with safes,kick shots,banks you name it.........beginners have a 50 for 3 weeks or so then get a handicap number....But I been up against a 35 and a 30, And they were as good as any 5 I've seen......Then again the balls just go in sometimes and there's nothing you can do.:sorry:

 

[hang-the-9]

This may seem like sour grapes, But I digress, This is the 2nd time I lost 2 games to 1. I lost the 1st match, won the 2nd, lost the 3rd.....match over! In APA, the players are given a number, the higher the number the better you are percieved to be.....( I agree ).
However in the league I am in, the players are given a higher number (regarding how many balls one should make in a match), I played 2 35's which in reality , should be push overs. They were no where close, masse's, draw shots, frigging kick shots......... Their way of handicapping sucks, plain and simple..........It needs to be addressed.
That being said, ( I had to get it off my chest). I shot a good game tonight......I'll take it and pity the fool I see next week.
rant over.:sorry:

What is "their way" exactly? 35 sounds like a USAPL league which goes from 35-125 unless you are talking about something else. All new players should start at 50 for 3 matches unless their skill is already known, then it can and should be modified manually by the LO to match the skill from the first time they play. If they were 35 which is basically a D player, they would have had to drop down their 3 first matches to that. I started in 9 ball after playing in 10 ball and technically I should have started as a 50 since I had no ranking in 9 ball and that is what my official rank was in 9 ball. But since I was established in 10 ball, my 9 ball rating was manually moved up to what it should be when I played, ignoring what the official rank was.

It's tough to say "it needs to be addressed" when you don't actually say what this is and exactly how good the players were and what the situation was. Remember this is not a forum for mind readers. If you and others knew how those players played they should have been manually adjusted and if new players they should be at 50. Assuming you are talking about USAPL handicapps.

I started to play in a league, soon as I see people faking their skill, I put my sticks away and walk out, no more playing in that league. The USAPL I played in my area is really good for not having sandbaggers, the LO and the players don't put up with that, if we see someone playing better than their ranking shows, we just say something and they get an instant bump. Tried TAP league, did not like the handicaps or the locations or player ratings much, after one season i was out.

 

[ssbn610g]

hang-the-9 is correct if it is a USAPL league. I have seen players come in who would have started as a 50 by the rules but the lo knew they should be higher due to their performance history in other leagues or tournaments. The situation I am thinking of the player came in as a 70. In addition, it will not take long for the averages to go up and the 3 week mark is where the players true speed really starts taking shape. Of course, there are always sandbaggers but they can be dealt with if you have a good LO.

Al

 

[jojopiff]

Complaining about skill levels whilst playing in a handicapped league is right near the top of things I'll never understand.

I hope you're just venting and will move on. I think sandbagging is an overused term that happens waaaaaay less than people would like to think. It's convenient to use for a loss and never applies when you (you figuratively, not literally you) win. People aren't as good as their best nor as bad as their worst. I think we could safely assume that 1 letter grade is the variation from ones' best - worst. So if a middle C players best is as good as a middle B and someone loses to them when playing like that, then middle C is a sandbagger! Vice versa, when middle C is playing like a middle D and loses to that same person, then it's all because I played great.

I know sandbagging happens but IMO it's much less than people would like to think. If you play a person twice, do you think you have a gauge on their true skill level? How about 5 times?

My best friend just started playing and moved up to a 5 by the end of his first session. His last match he could barely make a ball and got smoked by a 4. I wish the people who pissed and moaned during the season when he was a 3, then a 4, could have saw this when they thought he was sandbagging. When your on the lower end or middle skill levels your variation is much larger. He's honestly not the skill of a 5, but his best was good enough to move him there,

 

[Floyd_M]

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Some days are diamonds, some days are stones.

We all have good days and bad. Learn from both.
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[Inaction]

That's the nice thing around South Dakota. We play VNEA but none of the tournaments are handicapped. We have Open, A , B and C divisions. Sucks at times because I've been in a few with only 16 teams in the division but I would rather see that then give up the mega handicaps. Of course we still have people that find a way to play down but it can only happen a time or two before they can't get away with it anymore.

I believe that will change. GS announced that the tournaments will be handicapped and I thought MS did so too.

From the GS league standings on 10/27/14:
I have Counted all of the players votes and starting next year
the team tournament will be Handicapped!